Vertex in synastry

[blueorchids]

I just wanted to pop in and mention this link at Bob Marks' site; it's one I have been following for months, and the conversation and experiences folks have had with their vertex, anti vertex..are interesting to read about. Virtually all major events in my life have involved tight conjuctions or tight oppositions to my Cancer 27 vertex (8thH)

www.bobmarksastrologer.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2719

[lubenica]

I noticed that often best friends have Vertex Mercury conjunction in synastry, and fated loves Venus Vertex conjunction (I only look at conjunctions with Vertex). I only use 3 degree orb max for Vertex, I personally wouldn't use 8 degree orb, but lots of people differ in this respect.

[Amoroso]

For awhile now I have been looking at the vertex and anti-vertex. I am convinced it is a point that "draws in" energy when "you are doing it."

For example, my vertex is at 5 Gemini in the 8th house. When I "do" anything that reflects that energy, planetray points and synastry contacts that are nearby manifest as an inner or outer event.

Which makes me wonder if energy points like the angles, nodes, vertex and pars fortunae, act as magnets when you "do " them, but in syastry they are not felt as two-way other than you being yourself (as shown by vertex sign, hosue and aspects) attracts these things.

It looks like an applying aspect with up to a 4 or 5 degree orb may be valid.

So, my question is, what if my vertex is conjunct his anti-vertex? That obviously would make his vertex conjunct my anti-vertex.

What is that all about? Any ideas?

Blessings,
Amoroso

[chrissymgreen]

dear amoroso,

ive been learning about & looking into the vertex axis as of late, and i think that the situation you describe could be likened to having opposing rising signs, only stronger. i can think of a couple that fits the opposing rising signs bill (my college gal pal has scorpio rising and her husband has taurus rising, married 13 years now), and couples like this usually think they are good fit (as long as there are other strong connections between the charts of course).

ive met this astrologer recently that has presented the vertex/anti-vertex axis as an alternate asc/desc axis --- but where the usual asc/desc axis has to do with identity (self vs. other) in the here and now, the vertex/anti-vertex is an axis of spiritual identity. the vertex is the ascendant of the integrated self, and a place of spiritual power. this is why the encounters seem 'fated'. it operates on the level of synchronicities, and in any encounter or event where the soul is struggling towards integration. it's where we are trying to become our best self in the deepest way.

so having a flipped vtx/anti-vtx axis would speak along the same lines as a flipped asc/desc axis would, only it would be a deeper, SPIRITUAL connection. if both parties are more open to this level of consciousness...it would rock you to the core i would think.

here is something else this astrologer said to me (gosh, i may have quoted this elsewhere here so i apologize if im being repetitive):

What I've found is that aspects to the vertex, particularly the conjunction, bring tremendous opportunities for growth. The odd thing is that they aren't always on the surface. You have to keep your eyes and ears open, and follow your truth, or they'll pass you by. I look for synchronicities when the vertex is active, or anything that seems to connect at a deep level.

From what I've seen, it's the anti-vertex that's the power point in terms of relationships. That's the place that we'll experience fated encounters. I don't throw around the term 'soul mate' but you'll find conjunctions to the anti-vertex signify deep, deep connections between people. They may not last forever, but these anti-vertex relationships always aid a person in their spiritual growth. I haven't seen enough charts to really be certain, but I have seen it active in the 'love at first sight' phenomenon.


i have to say, i do have personal experience with the antivertex in my current relationship that i can use here as an example. gordon's antivertex is at 5 cap and my mars is at 4 cap...my antivertex is at 2 scorp and his mars is at 1 scorpio. so his mars is on my AV and vice versa. i think this has generated a deeply sexual energy --- much like a mutual mars conjunct AC would feel, let's say. however, it goes beyond that because ive gone on and on here about gordon's assertion problems (i have not gone into my own assertion problems as much but suffice it to say having a 6th pisces sun coupled with a mercury/chiron conjunction on the DC brings about serious assertion isues for me -- particularly in my r-ship with my sister, as my mercury/chiron is square a 3rd house mars)...and what i think is happening as a result of this relationship is that each of us is forced to deal with our assertion problems in a much deeper way. it just goes way beyond sex or chemistry. he teaches me how to be firmer, more fierce (antivertex scorpio) and i teach him about being his own authority, giving him some sort of earthy strength (capricorn).


i hope this helps in some way!


chrissy

[blueorchids]

Chrissy that situation with Gordon sounds downright yum. I'll have what she's having--2 servings please waiter!!

This is the thing that totally confuses me.... so like in my situation where my vertex is 27 cancer and D's ascendant is 27 cancer (his vertex is 13 sag and my asc=13 sag) AND my anti vertex is 27 cap and his descendant is 27 cap.... BUT the vertex is like a soulful ascendant SO would that be like ASC=ASC? DES=DES

Forget the fact that the day we meet in Aug 1995 the sag asc =13 --vertex equalled 27 cancer.

[Amoroso]

Thanks for the responses! Yes, Chrissy, that resonates with me.

Not only are our vertexes on each others' anti-vertexes by 4 degrees, but my Mercury is exact on his antivertex and his Venus/Sappho is on my anti-vertex by 2 degrees. !!! I confuse myself just writing about it. Then there's all the aspects to the vertexes...

And from what you know of the situation (what situation? I haven't seen or heard from him in a year and a half) you can tell what those contacts might feel like. Uber-spiritual, communication, bonded, playful attraction.

Blue, I think when there are electrical points that close, it feels like you've gone up to an electrical socket and stuck your finger in. Like two ants that have gone up to each other with their feelers and electrocuted each other within an inch of frying. (There's a Gemini 8th House image if I ever saw one!!!!) Does that fit?

Blessings,
Amoroso

[Amoroso]

BO--there's a book by Martha Pottenger called "The East Point and the Anti-Vertex." Looks interesting. Has anyone read it?

Amoroso

[blueorchids]

Your anti-vertexes (opps had to fix that) are on each others vertexes AMOROSO? So I suppose I was wondering if that felt like an ascendant = descendant energy to you.

Our double whammy vertex=ascendant antivertex=descendant always feels like a don't I know you from some place? And can we find a wet cave to sit down and talk in? The electrical thing is always however spooky to me (constantly odd) . Because on the few times that we have accidentally touched each other, we often encounter a shock, and there is no carpet in his office!!

PS I am familiar with the work but do not own it.

[chrissymgreen]

dear ladies,

yeah, blue, this seems a little confusing to me too, but it is my understanding that the antivertex could be likened to a spiritual *ascendant* and the vertex the *descendant*. but i am unsure, because i've found this:

The vertex is a term originated by the modern astrologer Johndro, arising from a theory (perhaps based on a suggestion made by Collin) that the existence of a magnetic field within and around our Earth postulates that there must be two Ascendants (or more properly, tow Ascendant-Descendant axes), one being magnetic, the other electrical. These might, under certain conditions, be visualized as being at right angles to each other. This alternative axis is called the vertex-antivertex axis: the so-called magnetic Ascendant is the traditional Ascendant (that is, the ancient Horoscopos) while the electrical Ascendant is the so-called vertex. Whilst it is widely recognized that Johndro's analogy, upon which this conception is based, is itself invalid, he claims to have shown (using the "known data method") that the axis is linked with involuntary actions, lack of choice, and fate. As with so many modern astrological speculations, there appears to be a chimerical basis for the idea of the vertex. This curious axis cannot hold any relationship to the Ascendant or to the Ascendant-Descendant axis. The fact is that the Ascendant marks the relationship estblished between a given locality on the Earth and a point on the zodiacal arc. The vertex-antivertex axis is the supposed expression of a relationship contained wholly within the magnetic field of the Earth: it could in no way (even by forced analogy) be described as an Ascendant, or treated as an equivalent influence, precisely because it is non-zodiacal in origin.

The Vertex was discovered independently by L. E. Johndro and Charles Jayne. Johndro considered it and the Antivertex as electrostatic release points of the Earth at the birth moment, and connected them with Uranus. Jayne regards the Vertex as the most impersonal angle in the chart: the most fated, the lest conscious or voluntary, and having to do with the past (as distinguished from the Ascendant, which is the most personal angle, the least fated, the most conscious and voluntary; and has to do with the future.


and here's this:

What it IS, is: the intersection of Prime Vertical and the ecliptic.

As with house systems, I wonder how the implications arise from the technical fact.

www.philipsedgwick.com

Prime Vertical : The vertical plane over an observer that passes directly east-west and straight overhead. One of the fundamental planes defining local space, along with the horizon (Ascendant) and the meridian (MC).

Hence, the correlation of the Vertex with angles - it is basically a third angle.


so this does seem confusing initially -- is the vertex likened to the descendant or ascendant?

regardless of whichever it is, i think asc/desc to vertex/antivertex would be very powerful, much in the same vein that nodes to angles are potent. it would be something like linking what one is in the external reality up with the way the other needs to be on a soul level. that'd pack a punch.

amoroso, i can imagine how powerful those contacts are. the way i understand it, it's very powerful to have planets or angles conjunct the vertex axis (either conjunct the vertex or the antivertex, from what i understand it's the antivertex that packs a bigger punch), it's connecting that planet/angle to a deep, spiritual place in the other person. i'd forgotten to mention this before, it always slips my mind somehow, but in my reading with this astrologer we covered my relationship with gordon, and she mentioned this: my vertex is conjunct gordon's chiron (i always think it's too wide, because my vertex is at 2 taurus and his chiron is at 9 taurus, but she says with angles or vertex or nodes or lights or chart ruler you can always go a little wider, and this generally seems to be true). at that time (of the reading), he was out of my life and i was looking for closure, acceptance, it took me so long to get to that point, too...it was really painful. i can't even describe it, really. it was far too heavy. and when i had my reading with her, she brought this up. she said:

The other thing that’s noticeable here is that Gordon’s Chiron is conjunct your Vertex. It means that you identified deeply with his wounding in a very spiritual sense. His wound was at the essence of your being, and caused an intense identification. This is being transited by Chiron and Saturn now, causing you to feel the lack and the deep rupture caused by his absence; at the same time your connection to his wound feels eternal and beyond this time and space. Your sexual relationship must have been very deep and healing. This alone would cause you to feel that you would never be able to ‘let go’ of him, never mind the deep rupture that the Pluto transit is causing to your Sun and Moon.

and when i read this, i cried. and i never cry, hardly ever, even though i often get very emotional. so i know, i know, exactly how you feel.

edit: i just wanted to go back in here and say this is how i know just how powerfully the relationship you speak of has affected you. a connection to one's vertex or antivertex brings up powerful, visceral, gut level responses that one just has to deal with (if one chooses, i guess).

and about that booklet, ive tried to order it, but it seems it is out of print. amazon dot com kept me waiting 3 months for it before informing me it's not gettable.


chrissy

[Amoroso]

Chrissy,

Thanks so much for your posts. I am revisiting much in the syanstry with C because of profound , fundamental changes in my being right now (I suppose we are all doing this and that's why we gravitated to this forum.)

When you and I were corresponding, and in your posts on the forum, I could really feel the vertex/Chiron in your synastry with Gordon. How interesting and spot on what that astrologer said to you in regards to the transits at the time!

My husband's Chiron is conjunct my IC, and I think that this connection is what has given me endless patience with him. I see and understand his wounding and understand it also as his core strength. How else to explain this kind of empathy and understanding of who he is? And my Chiron/Eros is conjunct his Mercury (his chart ruler) and trine his vertex. Much the same thing.

So thanks for pointing out these thoughts on vertex and the angles. There's another thread going on right now that someone started on NN-vertex where Aqua ? --sorry, can't remember who, cited some similar findings.

BO, you wrote "Your anti-vertexes are on each others vertexes AMOROSO?

Yup. By 4 degrees. It was helpful to hear about the larger orb between Gordon's contact and Chrissy's, because like I said, I could totally FEEL this connection between them (Chrissy, where is this contact? I want to see if it hits anything in my chart.)

C. chose not to deal with it. I mean, here I am, 22 years older and with the study and developing practice of occult practices to help me make sense of it. I can not blame him for pulling back and shutting it out, which goes with some images of him both Kim and I have received.

Speaking of angles and planets, C's Chiron is conjunct my DC line, and opposite my DEC/Vesta/Neptune. My experience of him and the way I have absorbed it have had a HUGE healing on my relationship with my husband. (By the way, C's Draconic Pluto is right on my DC line, so there you have it!)

So interesting!
Amoroso

[chrissymgreen]

dear amoroso,

wow, that chiron/IC connection between you and your husband must be a strong bonding aspect. from what i am learning (i'm paying this astrologer that i mentioned -- the one i got the reading from -- for private tutoring so i've been doing some studying and whatnot), the main pull synastrically speaking are contacts to angles, contacts between the nodes, tight outer planet to inner planet contacts (less important but still worth considering, generally indicative of relationships that are not "new"), and vertex contacts. the vertex axis is considered very important in europe. she also thinks chiron contacts are incredibly important, and she considers saturn a major relationship planet because it is the "get real" planet. it is where we build something real in this world. she says that we have to remember it's a story -- starting with saturn. "The limitations, restrictions and fears of Saturn cause the wound, Chiron is the location of the wound, and the disconnect of Uranus is the result. This is why Chiron is so important; without it, we don't have a connection between the wound itself and the result." i find this so fascinating.

you know it's really odd, but i think i've sensed your vertex connections with C. i could feel the deepness, i guess. that sounds lame -- but i just got the impression that the involvement was not of the usual attraction thing that venus or mars represent. it seemed deeper, more spiritual.

that's really weird too that you sensed that chiron/vertex -- it feels as if i was a little late in coming to the party...or well, it's not a party. kind of the opposite of party, if ya ask me.

let's see, well, my vertex is at 2° taurus. it is in my 7th house. gordon's chiron is at 9° taurus. there is a 7° orb there. this might be a factor though, maybe you sensed this --- gordon, like me, has chiron in the 6th conjunct the descendant opposed uranus on the ascendant. the signs do differ (we are 7.5 years apart after all). there's something else that differs too -- uranus on my asc actually opposes MERCURY and chiron in the 6th on the desc, and in his chart it's VENUS & uranus on the asc that oppose chiron in the 6th on the desc. i said all this to point out that these are strong configurations that show up in our composite chart, since our charts are so similar. maybe this was something you picked up on, given the angularity/strength? that's incredible, though!


i think there's another reason i have not mentioned that the chiron aspect of my relationship is just really coming out into the open. it's that my progressed asc is now yep, you guessed it, 9° scorpio. so progressed descendant is 9° taurus, natch, and this means that his natal chiron is right on my progressed descendant now. so i'm really waking up to this, this chiron energy.

next year in may, i have a progressed new moon (progressed sun conjunct progressed moon) that occurs in the progressed 6th conjunct the DC and in my natal 7th -- at 4° taurus conjunct my natal vertex. the last time i had a progressed new moon i was ... 9 i think, and my family moved to texas the year after my PNM. i'm curious to see how this PNM contacting the natal vertex plays out.


this is great, guys!

c

[Amoroso]

Chrissy,

More on this later, but I wanted to tell you that my progressed Moon, at the time we were corresponding, was a 10 Taurus!

Amoroso

[chrissymgreen]

that's far out!


hey, amoroso, do you think you could send me your birth data again privately? i used to have it in my astro.com profile, but i believe i went through and cleaned out all the entries i had (at some point i just had way too many) and it was then i must have gotten rid of it -- i could have sworn i saved your birth chart as a PDF somewhere, but i can't find it either...thanks!


chrissy

[digitalchi]

My observations on the vertex being an "activation point" is that progressions (as a picture of where one is at a particular point in time) are an important clue to timing:

When my significant other and I noticed each other in a more-than-platonic way for the first time (we'd been friendly for ages before that, but I certainly hadn't noticed him in any way except that he was lovely to talk to when we bumped into each other), we had the following vertex activations in each of our own charts (which shows, I think, that each of us individually was "ripe" for a relationship):
* his progressed descendant was conjuct his natal vertex, and his transiting descendant ruler was in hard aspect to his natal vertex.
* in my chart, progressed Juno and progressed Venus were in hard aspect to my natal vertex.

We had the following vertex activations in synastry (which I interpret as indicators that the relationship had to be with each other):
* his progressed vertex was receiving exact trines from my natal sun (which falls in his 4th) and natal moon (which falls in his 12th).
* my progressed vertex was receiving an exact trine from his progressed venus.

In natal synastry:
* my vertex is conjunct his descendant ruler;
* his vertex is conjunct the focus of my T-square;
* our vertices are square.

So I think it's a three-layer process:
(1) own chart activity (transit or progression) to own vertex shows whether one is "open" to a relationship at a particular point in time;
(2) activations in dynamic synastry (transit or progression) shows the particular person who enters our lives;
(3) activations in natal synastry show staying power.

[tom]

digitalchi - interesting! your comments took me back to the charts for my current relationship, that i've mentioned earlier in this thread.

when we met, her progressed moon was on my progressed vertex, and her progressed vertex was on my natal sun-moon midpoint (also my BML).
her progressed descendant was our composite sun. and her progressed venus was our composite chiron.

natally my sun is on her vertex & her jupiter-venus is on mine.