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Post by whiteheather on Apr 16, 2006 17:16:55 GMT
I have never asked this question even though for quite some time it has been on my mind: "Should I get a divorce?" Note that I ask "should" and not "Will I?" which I suppose would make a difference in the interpretation?? It seems to be a valid chart, but I am a little disappointed in that I had hoped for something really clear and overt, like a dissonant Mars or Uranus in the seventh, but ... it's more subtle than that. Still, I think I am getting the answer I am seeking. Here is the chart (hope it shows up): My co-ruler, the Moon, is close to the Ascendant, meaning the matter is close to my heart? The last conjunction it made was with Saturn indicating why I am asking this question: coldness, oppression, incompatibilty in the marriage. This Moon is trining (and getting closer to) Chiron in the 5th house which perphaps indicates that resolving this issue will have an emotionally healing effect? (I am just guessing here.) My ruler is Venus which is in its exaltation in Pisces, making an exact trine to the MC. Venus also makes a trine to Mars, my husband's significator, although it seems wide (astro.com uses orbs that I find sometimes too generous), and in this case is separating. Venus is moving away from Mars, toward Uranus in the 6th house. Uranus means abrupt change, suddenness of some kind, and in the sixth - a job opportunity? An illness? But how does this relate to a conjuntion with Venus? Does it mean that Venus separates from Mars due to Uranus issues in the sixth, whatever they are, or is the conj. Just an outcome of the separation with Mars? In other words, is the separating of Venus from Mars and the approachment of Venus with Uranus something that in real life takes place simultaneously or sequentially? And the other question is, is there any kind of timing to be gleaned from this? Mars is in its detriment in Gemini, and widely conjunct the MC, and Venus, my significator, is separating from this trine to Mars, which might mean that there will be an official separation between the two of us, and HE will be seen as the party that caused it because of Mars' week position in the chart, and close the the MC? I am again speculating. The Moon does make a trine to Mars before it leaves Libra, and I wonder what that means.... Does Mars only stand in as the significator of my husband, or also as the ruler of the seventh in general and can therefore mean different things with different aspects? Another thing that jumps out at me - the Sun in the 7th house, by itself, very obvious and in all its glory. It makes a trine to Pluto in the 3rd, and to Neptune in the 5th, and Neptune is the secondary ruler of Pisces where my primary significator is located. Keeping all this in mind, plus the fact that the Sun here rules the 11th house of dreams of wishes, and that it is in mutual reception with Saturn, I wonder what this means. I remember Kim saying that sometimes a planet very clearly stands for a person in real life, and the Sun and also just so happens to rule Leo which is the sign of someone I like quite a bit, I wonder if in this chart he isn't represented by this Sun. Note that it doesn't make an aspect with Venus or the Moon, which is correct since we do not have a relationship at this time. (The Sun will however make a conj. with Venus, but much later in the year, so I don't think this counts.) Oh, and the Moon is opposing my North Node, and applying, but that means it is conjunct the SN, as is the Asc. So what does this mean, that my emotional nature will express itself in the way it feels it must, which is in this case get divorced? There is also an inconjunct betw. Moon and Venus, my two significators. Maybe I am not at peace with my decision? There is a conflict there betw. my emotional needs, and the rest of me? There are issues with guilt, for example, because of the children… And what exactly DOES the significator mean? The will, the essence of the querent, the energy, all of the above? There is also the Vertex making a t-square to Jupiter and Neptune, but it is separating... Thanks for anyone's input, I'd be grateful for any comments. P.S. I left out asteroids so the chart wouldn't look so crowded, but maybe I'll post a second chart with some of them in it.
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Post by whiteheather on Apr 16, 2006 18:01:54 GMT
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Post by Juliet on Apr 16, 2006 22:28:48 GMT
Hi Whiteheather,
Your significator will conjoin Uranus next, so there certainly will be disruption. Since you did not give the data, I could not repost the chart in Regiomontanus. Since Venus is separating from a trine with Mars, you seem to already have separated from your husband, which makes sense when I read your posts. Venus is exalted in Pisces, you seem to be 'strongest' here, and the fastest planet, moving away fast. Venus is 5 might represent your concern about the children. Mars is VOC, in weak condition.
I find your question hard to answer. Should you divorce... Venus is applying to a trine to retrograde Jupiter next, which interestingly is received by Mars, and by Venus in its term of Scorpio. Jupiter is ruler 6, which Venus is technically in. In traditional horary, any planet within 5 degrees to a cusp is assigned to the next house.
The children are represented by Saturn in 10/11, fifth for your husband, and will trine the DC soon. Moon is ruler of 10, end of the matter, and will be with you soon, I guess that's a positive sign for you.
Moon represents the events that will take place, and the last aspect it'll make, will be a sextile to retro Pluto in 3. Communication break down?? When we only count the traditional planets, the last aspect will be an opposition to the Sun, in exaltation in the 7th, Marses house. I do not know if the Sun represents the Leo guy here, since he is 'with your husband', and there even is mutual reception between Sun and Mars. Could your husband be in love too? Or very involved in traveling or education for career purposes?
Mars entered Cancer before Moon could perfect a square to it.
Just a quick analysis, mind you. Wish you all strength in the world. Juliet
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Post by whiteheather on Apr 16, 2006 23:27:28 GMT
Hi Juliet! I love your name! I appreciate your input here, believe me, but some things you say I just don't get. For example, I am not sure I know what you mean by my "not giving the data." I drew the chart last week, on April 11. "Venus is applying to a trine to retrograde Jupiter next, which interestingly is received by Mars, and by Venus in its term of Scorpio. Jupiter is ruler 6, which Venus is technically in. In traditional horary, any planet within 5 degrees to a cusp is assigned to the next house." That's an eloquent description of something that I had noticed too, but do not have a clue about what it means. Do you? Does anybody? To answer your question, no, my husband definitely isn't in love with anyone. (Where do you see that??) I am absolutely positive about it, and neither is he travelling (I wish), or engaged in educational pursuits. Also, I don't believe Mars is in mutual reception with the Sun, Saturn is, unless I misunderstand mutual reception. (Doesn't it mean that 2 planets are in each other's sign?) Thanks for your comments, Juliet, and your wishes, I appreciate both very much.
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Post by Juliet on Apr 17, 2006 17:59:37 GMT
Hi W, The data were not on the chart, check your link... I like to work with Regiomontanus house system. What does the sixth house mean to you in this question? The 6th seems all important here. Who or what do you feel is Jupiter here? Is there someone at work who could help you somehow?? Could it be a lawyer? Lilly says about the 2nd: In suits of law, it signifies a man's friends or assistants. Again Lilly: if Jupiter be placed in this house... an argument of an estate or fortune'. I wondered if your husband was (or had been) in love, since Sun is with him, and in his sign. You're right about there not being mutual reception, only very weak, Mars is in Sun's face! I must have been cross-eyed... Too many eggs. BTW, there is no mutual reception between Saturn and Sun either. Mars is in 9, so him involved in travel or education or career matters (so close to 10) seemed likely. He's VOC, so there's something about to change in his situation anyway. And, as I mentioned before, I do not see a clear answer here!
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Post by Kim Falconer on Apr 18, 2006 1:58:47 GMT
Whiteheather,
What do you mean by 'should'? Are you asking if it would benefit you financially, or emotionally or spiritually or creatively to make this choice? Do you mean "will I be better off after a divorce?"
I'm not clear what you want to horary to tell you. If we concentrate on what you really want to know, then I think we can find a clear answer.
Can you elaborate?
Kim
Kim
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Post by whiteheather on Apr 18, 2006 2:49:07 GMT
Hi Kim!
I just realized that I didn't notice how other people can easily mistake the formation of my question as "mealy mouthed" or some kind of capricious meandering of the mind because I have nothing better to do between my appointment at the beauty salon and dance lessons.... Nothing could be further from the truth. The fact is I am so involved in this problem that I have developed a kind of short hand when I talk or write about it. But you are right, I should make an effort and be more explicit...
As Juliet pointed out earlier, I seem to have made up my mind already considering that my significator Venus, the faster planet, is separating from Mars, my husband's significator. And she is right. We have emotionally drifted apart a long time ago, and our marriage is basically a thing that exists only on paper, aside from parenting. So what's there to wonder and hesitate, right? Well, sorry but I may be one of those people who have trouble cutting away from (self)destructive relationships. And there is always the possibility that I could be wrong -- is it bad to have enough humility to distrust one's instinct? I am very much aware of my natal Moon in 12th squaring Neptune in 3rd, and what it says about that is that reality and imagination are sometimes impossible to distinguish. (Interestingly, my husband has this aspect too, but in different houses.) I wanted to get a horary picture of my conflict and see what it says about it, and I had to frame the question somehow....
Also, there is the fact that I am an introvert and a private person, and it is difficult for me to express certain things without feeling that I am actually violating my own and someone else's privacy in the process...
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Post by Kim Falconer on Apr 19, 2006 6:19:05 GMT
Dear Whiteheather, I know how hard this can be, to aciculate and to expose. There are many things that keep any one of us in situations that may not be creative. This isn't a good thing. It isn't a bad thing. It's just something that occurs. I'm guessing all of us have overstayed in relationships that had parted ways emotionally long ago. I know I have. I have a lot of compassion for the difficulties in making changes. My query was in the wording which is so important to the process of Horary. "Should' implies you want the chart to tell you what to do, and I know that is not what you meant! I think you wanted to know, as you say, the big picture around what is going on, and fair enough! I don't think your conflict is with your husband. That separation seems clear. I think the conflict may lie within yourself and your, as you mentioned, conflicts around instinct and separation. This is a very important time to be self-supporting emotionally and allow much gentle nurturing. That the chart depicts separation, I have no doubt. Not only the rulers Venus and Mars make no aspect (must be in sign) meaning there is nothing to keep you together, but also the Sun and Moon are moving to opposition (traditional horary gives the man Sun and the woman Moon) with you (co-ruler moon) moving to oppose. Now, I have the Moon's last aspect as trine Mars, which suggests the final outcome will be quite 'friendly' with an easy flow of energy in shared time with the kids etc. Does that seem possible to you right now? I know you feel trapped. Venus is besieged between Uranus and Neptune and there can be much fear in making this choice. It's almost as if you are waiting for it to 'just happen' which I think it will. When you and your husband talk about divorce, do you find any mutual ground? Have you thought about counselling to facilitate the separation, particularly to help the kids adjust (they are generally very adaptable creatures!) Have you talked about a trial separation (baby steps?) or is it a 'clean sweep' that seems more authentic? I think that Moon trine Mars says that communication is your key. If your husband isn't open to counselling, you can go and get some 'tools' for coping with this enormous change. Think of all the talk and dialog and advice and planning you did for the marriage...Well, separation or divorce requires at least 10 times that much (the wedding was one day...how long have you been married?) I think the chart is quite reflective, and supportive of you. It's almost like it's saying "What divorce? you aren't together...." Both you and your husband deserve and emotionally nurturing relationship. If you don't have it with each other, it's time to talk about letting go of that which is unnourishing. Let's look at the declinations. can you list them? or give me the day/time and I'll look them up. Thanks for sharing so much here. It's really helpful in learning more about Hoaray, and believe me MANY of us have been where you are now! Am I right? (Oh.,...that's something my ex-husband used to say... Can anyone comment? Warmly, Kim
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Post by Juliet on Apr 19, 2006 13:57:27 GMT
Hi Whiteheather and Kim: The Moon-Mars trine will not perfect -Mars will leave Gemini before the Moon gets the chance to perfect- so the opposition to Sun will be the last aspect Moon makes. This will not be easy, but a divorce is hard work, as Kim wrote... And will be for the years to come.
Best of luck to you, Juliet
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Post by primamateria on Apr 19, 2006 14:35:51 GMT
Dear Whiteheather, I'm sorry I missed this thread earlier, I've been fairly absorbed in my own silly struggle - but my heart really went out to you when I read your posts.
I had a quick look at your horary, and thought it quite apt that Libra is rising and the moon is opposite the north node ... the Libra/Aries theme is always relevant to this question - the tension between needing to be alone vs being part of a couple. Moon opp node speaks to me as you feeling as though you have some other path to follow.
I hope you don't mind me saying I can relate to this question, having been through breaking up my marriage only 3 years ago. I can remember quite vividly the months sitting on my back balcony writing list after list of pros and cons - stay or go... questioning everything and wanting to find some really good reason to stay, knowing that I really needed was to let go of the crappy ones I was using to prevent me from breaking free. Finally, FAte handed me one and I got a big push (perhaps from Pluto transiting my seventh house Mars!?!) into the unknown. There was no other partner for me (and still isn't ) but this is the life I am meant to be living and it feels infinitely more authentic.
Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that I support your asking these questions and going through the process to come to your decision. I wish I could help more with the horary but it looks like the experts have you in hand. I wish you a clear mind and a strong heart, and plenty of strength and support through your process, be true to you.
peace, pm
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Post by sopranokris on Apr 19, 2006 14:51:30 GMT
Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents here since I just ended my marriage of 13 years three months ago. I've been in your shoes and I know what you're going through. All the self-doubt, all the worry, ESPECIALLY over your children. I will tell you this: if you think there is any way at all to salvage your marriage, then do whatever you can to keep it together. This divorce has been so HARD on my son, seeing him cry every weekend, sobbing in my arms, asking why we can't be a family again...it RIPS my heart apart!!! However, there's no way my ex & I could ever be happy together after all that has happened. I lost all the feelings of marital love I ever had for him. He's not a bad person and he's a good father, which is why it was so HARD to end it. I was pretending to be happy just for the sake of my child. I couldn't live like that anymore. I was miserable on the inside.
So, while horary can guide you and give you a picture of what's to come, the choice ultimately lies within you. You should base the decision to end your marriage because it's the right thing for you, don't use the horary as a crutch. I'm not trying to be harsh with my words and I hope that didn't come out the wrong way. When you're in the midst of the myriad of emotions (strong, POWERFUL emotions) that go along with contemplating divorce, it's hard to detach yourself and take a look at the big picture. I know EXACTLY how you feel right now and I don't envy you the position you're in. Don't get me wrong, I don't regret ending my marriage, it needed to be done. But living with the consequences of that decision has been very difficult. Knowing that I've caused my son such deep pain hurts me to my very core. So, again I say...only end it if it's TRULY over. If you know for a fact no amount of counseling will help repair your marriage. If there still is a chance your feelings could change, don't put your kids through it. Trust me, you don't want to see it happen. But if you know in your heart it's over....then hold, because the road is going to be bumpy for a while.
Hang in there and remember, you're not alone!
{{{{Hugs}}}} to you,
--Kristin
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Post by primamateria on Apr 19, 2006 15:03:40 GMT
Kristen, I had no idea that you were going through this - I hope things will start to ease up for you and your son soon. I have four girls who really missed their dad and felt our separation deeply but they have come through it, and are happy and strong individuals. I hope it helps you to read that others have survived and even grown stronger and happier as a longer-term result of separation. You are right to give the advice that if there is something to salvage then to do so. Remember that your son has the love of his mother, and that will buoy him up, even in these rough seas, and that the little kid he was will always be there at his core. Faith, pm
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Post by sopranokris on Apr 19, 2006 18:28:42 GMT
Awww, thanks so much for the kind words, PM. It certainly does help to know that there are people who have "been there, done that"! I know it's hard on my son now, but he did say to me last week that I don't look sad anymore. He's only 7 and even *he* understood that I wasn't happy. Kids are so perceptive...much more so than we give them credit for sometimes.
Well, with Pluto transiting my natal Moon/Eros and Uranus still in my 4th house, I'm certainly not out of the woods yet. It's definitely a "burn me down and build me up from the ashes" time in my life. Sometimes I want to scream "I don't WANT to change, I don't WANT to transform" but I realize I can either go with the flow and LET it happen or I can buck the changes and have them FORCED on me whether I like it or not.
Whiteheather, I hope you are doing OK and will let us know what happens, no matter what you decide to do. Stay strong!
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Post by whiteheather on Apr 20, 2006 15:31:20 GMT
Thanks so much for all your supportive comments. It feels very nourishing to me. Indeed, I feel like I am living in an emotional war zone where nothing is forgiven or forgotten and years and years of acrimony have built up to this incredible festering wound. I am glad to be understood here, but that the nature of your understanding comes from personal experience makes me sad. Why do we all have to go through these things…..
I know what you mean Sopranokris by not using the horary as a crutch, but, with all due respect to astrology, I would never do that. And it isn’t even necessary. This chart depicts the way things are right now quite accurately. Horary astrology is really a miraculous thing…. I have weighed and measured carefully, Soprano, that’s why it’s taking me so long to get out. And in the best of times – frankly, we are kind of like oil and water. Our energies are completely different... I am sure your son’s heart will mend. Think of the alternative – living for years, especially in the growing-up years, in a house full of strife does terrible things to the psyche. Surgery is always traumatic and takes time to heal, but letting a disease fester can affect the whole system… Without even knowing anything about you, I believe you did the right thing, and that’s all anybody can do. I wish you and your little boy lots of strength and love…
Dear Kim, everything you say about this chart sound so right… I do feel trapped, and I am craving emotional nurturing. Indeed, I feel I haven’t been breathing properly for years. Getting out of this marriage isn’t about my personal happiness, it is about saving myself. I feel the way I live right now is killing my spirit. Counseling will have to be part of the separation to in order to help my husband cope with this. This is his second marriage, he already has a son an the other end of the country whom he rarely gets to see. He never really recovered from the first divorce, and now this… But I can’t be held hostage to his emotional problems.
There could be communication and a smooth (well, however “smooth” a divorce can be) transition if he would cooperate, but he refuses to even discuss a divorce. His contribution to the discussion is a flat out: “I don’t want a divorce.” And that’s it. He is determined not to lose the children (which he wouldn’t, he knows he could see them and have them over whenever he wants, I already said that.) He adores them to the point of self-annihilation, and in order to have an “intact” family he is willing to put up with marital hell. Those are his priorities. That in itself is kind of… extreme, when you think about it. He and I both deserve an “emotionally nurturing relationship,” as you say, Kim, and I have to get that across to him somehow. This may be the end of something, but it is also the beginning of something ultimately better.
Also, I wouldn't put it past him to be - not necessarily on a conscious level - manipulative in this regard. He knows I am miserable, and by sticking to his guns he is making me do all the moves, which means that he can then point a blaming finger: She did this, she is the one who wanted a divorce. (He does have Sun and Mercury in Scorpio, and I have always thought he was passive/aggressive at times.) PM – you are so right, kids are resilient, and also extremely aware of what is going on, and I think I have seen the effects of a dysfunctional family in the long run. I know people whose parents never got divorced – but probably should have – who come from homes where there were serious problems between the parents, and they now have to deal with anxiety problems, or depression, or low self-esteem, are addicted to alcohol, or who are unable to have long lasting healthy relationships and keep getting divorced. At the same time I know people who grew up in single parent households who are happy and productive and raising their own happy families…
Juliet, thanks for coming back and commenting. I think you may be on to something concerning Jupiter in second house… And squaring my Vertex.. that looks like it's going to hurt... And no Mars/Moon trine… That’s too bad but I am not surprised. In our synastry we have a Sun/Mercury square, and a Mercury/Neptune conjunction. If there were fruitful communication in our parting that would be ironic since we didn’t have it while being together, lol.
Thanks again so much for all your warmth and supporting comments! It means a lot to me. Do any of you by the way have shared custody? How did you work out the nitty-gritty of having your children see their dads? (Unless it's too painful for you to talk about it.)
Love, Whiteheather
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Post by primamateria on Apr 21, 2006 2:09:56 GMT
dear Whiteheather,
yes it is sometimes sad to think about marriage breakups and the pain so many of us have had to go through... I see it as partly because many of us would have chosen our partners when we were young and largely 'unconscious', and partly because as we get older we do tend to break down ideals and examine them more carefully... there is an 'awakening' that happens, archetypically, at thirty five (no coincidences - about the time of the Pluto Square and then of course there's the Uranus opposition at around 40/41 which is also a catalyst for shaking things up). But its ok - its all part of life's journey. My favourite writer is an archeytpal psychologist, James Hillman ( once a student of Jung) and his words 'the soul always pushes us toward evololution' feel very right to me. (anyone here know anything about evolution? I think that genetic evolution requires 'mutations' doesn't it - seems quite apt)
So Whiteheather - this is you 'evolving'.
Kids are amazing - yes most of them are pretty resilient. I do strongly believe they come in to this world with their own view of things and that whatever happens is perfect - they will see things their own way, it will have the absolutely right effect - for each kid, that is, as individuals, for their own destinies. It helps to detach a little, not get so personally tied up and invested in what's going on with them - just offer love and support and let it go. Got to have faith in them, and remember who they are aside from what they show us with their grief and other emotions/behaviours.
I did offer my exhusband shared care of the children in the early days of our break-up - but he chose to stay in another State/City and only flew over once a month to see the girls. I was unsympathetic of his constant phone calls telling everyone how bereft he was - how it was all 'killing him'...This was the situation for two years, then he moved to this town and started seeing the children every other weekend, and although I have offered him extra weekends and other responsibilities he declined... just recently - three years on - decided he wants more time with them and wants to take me to Court to get it. I think he wanted to be able to point a finger at me and blame me for 'not doing the right thing' - he tells anyone who will listen that I 'prevent him from seeing the children'. Unbelievable.
Anyway, I tell you this not to put you off, but as a cautionary tale - in these circumstances people will behave very badly and do things to punish and wound even against their better judgement. Its a process - taking it all one step at a time and not expecting cooperation. Negotiating everything...even where there is no animosity an ability to negotiate shows how strong and resolute you are.
strength! pm
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