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Post by Amoroso on Jan 9, 2005 2:23:36 GMT
Hi Kim,
With my Uranus at 0 Cancer and Sun at 20 degrees Gemini, what might the Satrun retrograde energies bring?
Thanks! Amoroso
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Post by Aquarius Rising on Jan 9, 2005 4:52:50 GMT
I just have to chime in on this thread. I've been thinking about Saturn alot lately. Maybe because transiting Saturn is heading towards my mercury in cancer, again! Anyway, my husband and I have some heavy saturn contacts such as his Saturn inconjunct my Sun and Venus at 0 degrees and square my Mars at 1 degree (among other Saturn contacts) In a positive light, I can honestly say that Saturn has provided a lot of glue, and stability in the relationship. On the negative side his Saturn is like a tractor beam pulling me in and consistently criticizing everthing from the way I breathe to the way I brush my teeth! Whew, I feel wrung out! With our contacts I feel like Saturn has finally just crystallized the relationship to a point where it must end. However, I don't think Saturn is bad luck at all. I've built up a certain "grit" that I truly needed. I think this relationship put me in touch with my own Saturn traits, which I did need to develop (my Saturn is in retrograde in the 12th house, I'm not completely sure what that means, but I've certainly given alot of my own authority away in the past) and certainly, as I move on to other relationships, I will be so much more aware of the intesity of such contacts and perhaps understand them and learn to work with them more positively, or RUN! In my case Saturn was a stern teacher, I obviously needed to learn a lesson. Also, I believe if my husband had been aware of the energy of his Saturn in relation to my Sun, Venus and Mars, he could have been a much more gentle teacher. Anyhow, just my experience. Aquariusrising
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Post by Kim Falconer on Jan 9, 2005 10:23:23 GMT
Hello Amoroso, I think we started talking about this before new years, when you were asking what degree Saturn was turning around on, or something like that. There are no major aspects to your natal planets from Saturn now until after he turns direct. You do have Saturn Conta-Parallel North Node on February fifth at +20:40’ That could coincide with the meeting of a teacher or doing a workshop or having an experience of authority and power, yours or someone else’s. That there are no exact transit contacts from Saturn until the 29th of June when you get Saturn Square Neptune (Dreams get a reality check—authentic ones come into creation and illusions melt away) could leave you feeling a bit like you are treading water for a while—not getting where you want to go. Or, it could be just like a reprieve from pressures, a rest. In July and August, Saturn will conjunct your tenth house grouping of planets and asteroids, including Uranus/MC/Moon. I am thinking big career peak at that time with more responsibility and more public attention. Sudden, unpredictable changes! There are some minor aspects though. While Saturn is retrograde, it will semi-sextile your Sun at 20 Gemini in the end of February and again by direct motion in April. This February transit could present you with some building “blocks” that alert you to problems with your goals or current professional ambitions. By April, this could be resolved with a feeling of “go ahead” to the situation. Because it is retrograde in your 9th, I think the feeling of finding meaning and purpose in your work, especially teaching, performing and publishing, gets stretched thin. When Saturn goes direct, on the 23 of March, we are all going to lift our heads from the grindstone and take a deep breath. Sigh. The wheel turns again. Warmly, Kim
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Post by Amoroso on Mar 4, 2005 19:03:10 GMT
Dear All,
I was rereading Chrissy's post on Saturn and "letting go." Hoo boy, I think she's onto something there.
In an Astro Tutor, Kim suggested I meditate on Saturn, specifically, what Saturn wants me to realize or acknowledge in the relationship with this other man, but I avoided the meditation because I have been enjoying living in a Neptunian fantasy. And after restricting Neptune's influence for at least 3 years, I was in no mood to let go.
However, this is what happened when I did meet Saturn in meditation. First of all, the limits of the relationship did make themselves known, and I have to embrace these limits if the relationship is to develop in another direction or even somehow continue.
However, and this is where I would love impressions from you all, in the mediation, I hoisted myself up on Saturn's outer rings to "talk" with him, and I realized I had stumbled upon a way Saturn and Neptune are alike! The rings are made of nebulous gasses and ice chunks--half-formed particles and free-floating bits of things. Saturn was trying to tell me what his connection to Neptune is in this relationship. Now, how to find that?
Ideas? Thoughts? Free-floating ice chunks?
Blessings, Amoroso
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Post by Amoroso on Mar 4, 2005 21:07:44 GMT
Dear Kim,
This is the second part to the previous post I didn't think I'd have time to get to it today which is why it wasn't included with the above.
You wrote: "You have Saturn Conta-Parallel North Node on February fifth at +20:40’ That could coincide with the meeting of a teacher or doing a workshop or having an experience of authority and power, yours or someone else’s."
Well, I made contact with a friend from graduate school days who is now a yoga master/teacher, and I started working with her privately about that time! I am strong enough from surgical recoveries now that I can work on the pelvic floor muscles, and I have felt such release and empowerment from these simple exercises.
You also wrote: "That there are no exact transit contacts from Saturn until the 29th of June when you get Saturn Square Neptune (Dreams get a reality check—authentic ones come into creation and illusions melt away) could leave you feeling a bit like you are treading water for a while—not getting where you want to go. Or, it could be just like a reprieve from pressures, a rest."
Well, Saturn is directly conjunct my progressed Vertex right now, and I guess I am having a turning point about the situtation you know of. (By the way, Saturn is on his ASC right now.) I'm not disturbed by the thought of that Saturn square Neptune the end of June given what appeared in that Saturn meditation which I just described on the Saturn thread.
"In July and August, Saturn will conjunct your tenth house grouping of planets and asteroids, including Uranus/MC/Moon. I am thinking big career peak at that time with more responsibility and more public attention. Sudden, unpredictable changes!"
Interesting. I had just referred to this in the thread on the 11th house with Svenskasfinx.
"While Saturn is retrograde, it will semi-sextile your Sun at 20 Gemini in the end of February and again by direct motion in April. This February transit could present you with some building “blocks” that alert you to problems with your goals or current professional ambitions."
Yes, it has done that in both personal relationships and the teaching, writing, arts' administration, performing, etc. I never really realized how strong an aspect the semi-sextile is! I guess, as you say, it's being in aspect at all that counts!
"By April, this could be resolved with a feeling of “go ahead” to the situation. Because it is retrograde in your 9th, I think the feeling of finding meaning and purpose in your work, especially teaching, performing and publishing, gets stretched thin."
Maybe I can report back on this!
I can see why Saturn is associated with Capricorn, but what's he doing lording over Aquarius with Uranus? I ask this here, because in my mind I am trying to draw together the thread on the 11th house (with Svenskasfinx's compelling statements linking togther my 8, 9, 10 and 11 houses) and the meditation on Saturn.
Actually, if you could comment on the duel rulership of Saturn/Uranus in Aquarious, I can Astro Tutor you on the rest.
Thanks, Amoroso
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Post by Kim Falconer on Mar 6, 2005 5:27:21 GMT
Hello Amoroso, I’ve been wanting to talk about the whole Saturn/Uranus/Aquarius/11th house theme. Of all the signs of the Zodiac, Aquarius and Pisces (and the 11th and 12th) are the most complex. The duel rulerships are a reflection of this complexity. First up, it is so interesting, your meditation on Saturn and the link to Neptune. In a way, these planets represent completely disparate energies. Saturn is form and structure, Neptune is ethereal. Saturn is pragmatic; Neptune is mystical. Saturn is the boundary keeper, the ring past not, tangible, ambitious, solid; Neptune is beyond the boundaries, ineffable, egalitarian, fluid. I can talk forever about how different they are. I stumble when I think about the similarities, save they both represent change and their influence or activation in our lives can bring us to greater wholeness and a more authentic sense of self. This can be said of all the outer planets. What does come to mind is the forward progression from Aquarius to Pisces. That may be the tie as these two planets are the traditional ruler of the former and the modern ruler of the later. I am going to ponder the rings and ice chunks and get back to you on it! Anyone? About Saturn and Uranus as co-rulers of Aquarius—What a great question! It is easier to see the connection between Mars and Pluto (Scorpio) and Jupiter and Neptune (Pisces) than the combo of Saturn (the principle of constraint) and Uranus (the principle of freedom). Let’s run through the basics. Aquarius represents qualities of experimental and forward thinking, humanitarianism, space and freedom—the cycle of reaching to the future with new ideas, knowledge and understanding, establishing it there and then reaching even further into the future again. There is a duel rulership: traditional Saturn, king of the Titans, lends perseverance, capability, self-sufficiency and ambition to this sign, where the newer ruler Uranus, god of the starry skies, lends rebellion, originality, idealism and invention. Aquarius represents the ingenious, confident, restless and inquisitive aspect of thought and communication, often taking more interest in ideas, projects and proposals than people and their everyday needs. Known as the friendly sign, Aquarius offers a philosophical friendship, the idea of camaraderie and link to the group, that may not necessarily live out routinely in practical, shoulder to shoulder, ways. The natural seat of Aquarius is the eleventh house, the domain of groups, organizations, friends, and hopes and wishes for the further. Like the symbol of the Water-bearer, Aquarius pours forth the reservoir of wisdom, ideals and understanding so that others may drink in the knowledge. In most depictions, however, the bearer himself never gets his hands wet. This mythical symbol suggests the tremendous benevolence of this sign, as well as the self-possession and detachment that accompanies the realm of wisdom and those who seek it. Aquarius, like the Titan Prometheus, needs to steal fire from the gods and give it to humankind so that they may prosper. The Water-bearer also needs to retreat into a pristine ivory tower, away from the base and grind of earth living, to review thoughts, develop ideas and project visions into the future. Aquarius has great social concern and the desire to participate in groups that will enhance life. This may be achieved by breaking out of social conditioning, daring to be different and creating change through surprise, shock and excitement. You can imagine the bedlam on Mt. Olympus when Zeus couldn’t find his fire! This duel rulership combines the symbol of concentration and defined limits with the symbol of breaking free of limitations and restrictions. Saturn defines and focuses energy so that solid form may be structured, built and stabilized. Uranus shatters those forms when they become obsolete, or when the basis of their structure becomes inauthentic and out lived. The cycle between these two gods is vital for progress: without definition and organization, there is no form; without disruption, old forms crystallize into a penitentiary of ideas that no longer have any meaning. These two planets merge in the sign of Aquarius bringing responsibility to liberty, practicality to vision. Where we find Aquarius in the horoscope is where we need to break out of established patterns and project our own unique ideals out into the future. This is the part of life where we want to become more than we already are and everything we can possibly be. The Aquarius house(s) represent the area(s) of life were we need to feel unrestrained in our approach, seeking higher ideals, greater knowledge and broader communication. This is the stage that gives us the opportunity to feel unique, creative and innovative, zesty and zany. It is the sign of the genius in each of us, the desire to stimulate, question and animate. By pushing past boundaries in the house(s) of Aquarius and confronting the status quo, we give ourselves the opportunity to gain a higher level of existence, increased consciousness and the audacity to become everything we can possibly be. Isabel Hickey says that in charts that have Aquarius prominent (Sun, Moon, Ascendant) the strength of the ruler will determine “which” qualities of Aquarius they express more freely. If Saturn is stronger by sign, house or aspect, then the more traditional, fixed, cautious, focused, ambitious side of the sign will express. If Uranus is stronger, there will be more freedom, radical change and rebellion. What we have to “grok” is that Saturn, Capricorn and the 10th house represent a height of personal achievement. In the 10th we give up some personal and emotive goals (4th house) to be what we can, individually, in the world. When we enter the 11th house, all that changes. In the 11th we enter a world that is ruled not just by Saturn (our ambitions) but of the “higher octave” collective as well—Uranus! Something of the personal now takes a back seat to the collective—the transpersonal. We lose part of our individuality (height of 10th and Saturn) to become part of a group. Our singular path now merges with the paths of others. Liz Greene puts it this way, “The passage from Saturn to Uranus marks the transition from the supremacy of the personal will to the development of group consciousness.”<br> With placements in the 11th, or a strong Aquarius in the chart, we have to find some way to commit to the group consciousness, contributing our individuality in such a way that the there is PARTICIPATION with the goals and hopes and wishes of the collective—be they friends, like-minded others or associations. This is the place of the one-to-the-many and here we get to experience what that is like—being in a collective. Comments? Feedback? Let me know, Warmly, Kim
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Post by Amoroso on Mar 7, 2005 1:44:30 GMT
Dear ScorpyMoon, Kim, et all,
Thank you for your recent posts on this thread.
ScorpyMoon, I have been thinking along those "water" lines myself, which seems to tie into Kim's thought of the forward progression from Aquarius to Pisces. I am hard-pressed to verbalize this connection, but it will come to me in time. I need to read up on what that forward progression means.
Well, my Uranus/Moon/MC trines my Saturn in Scorpio. And, just for amusement, Chico's last name asteroid and Pandora are right there in the MH stellum. But this would be GIANTLY missing the point if I thought the meditation were solely about him.
The Universe is showing me something huge, right before my eyes, and I am wondering, like Sven. said, if I can't see the forest for the trees. With my Draconic Saturn conjunct exactly my Draconic MH, and square my Draconic ASC in Aquarius (which is conjunct Neptune/Vesta), natal Saturn semi-sextile natal Neptune and Saturn currently transiting my natal vertex and about to head over that natal MH stew, which of course, features Uranus. the times they are a-changing. (I have Mars in Pisces, like Bob Dylan, my husband's favorite song-writer.)
This weekend I participated in a tri-state professional event, and was able to realize some of what this all could mean. The past year there has been a massive restructuring of my physical body, so I should not be surprised when "all the other table legs," as Kim calls the connections between planetary energies, follows.
Please, if anyone gets any ideas on those ice chunks, let me know!
Thanks, Amoroso
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Post by aquariusrising2 on Mar 7, 2005 17:01:03 GMT
This subject is so relevant to my life right now. I spent the majority of Saturday just thinking about this very issue. I am an Aquarius Rising (obviously) with Saturn in Capricorn in the 12th house (saturn/neptune). I have spent much time trying to both "inuit" and analyze the nature of these energies and how they relate. After meditating on these energies, I came up with something quite similar to what has been suggested above. (At least relavent to my experiences). Aquarius, (I feel) must understand the "rules" and structure of Saturn or Capricorn before it can truly be credible enough to authentically color outside the box, and responsibly share its progressive ideals and visions with humanity. (Freedom never comes without responsibility) For Aquarius to truly function in an individualistic way it has to understand the traditional, in the sense of community. Saturn is the responsible part of Aquarius. Perhaps without an understanding of Saturn, Aquarius has no credibility. I also think Saturn/Neptune says "I am the structure within the chaos, bringing form to the formless. In some way, bringing individuality, form, identity to the collective. Maybe defining in a social sense, our place within the collective. Additionally, in the 12th house perhaps taking responsibilty in areas we would rather leave to the fog. Anyhow, not sure if my meditative insights help at all, but, boy I sure do have the Aquarius/Saturn/Neptune thing going on! Lots of light everyone! A.R.
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Post by Kim Falconer on Mar 7, 2005 23:22:42 GMT
I also think Saturn/Neptune says "I am the structure within the chaos, bringing form to the formless. In some way, bringing individuality, form, identity to the collective. This is so interesting because I woke up this morning with the idea of Saturn reflecting classical physics (this is a table and that is a cat) and Neptune reflective quantum physics (there is no difference between the table and the cat). Saturn does bring form and structure to the quantum reality of Neptune where there is only the oneness and interconnection of the universe. Saturn brings individual consciousness (the gold of the alchemists) and “a causal reality” out of the symmetrical, acausal matrix of our quantum source. The rings seem to my right now to symbolize the boundaries to both these realms--the real, and the unseen real. Saturn is clearly more accessible, yet Neptune is actually a bigger picture. More thoughts? :DKim
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Post by Amoroso on Mar 8, 2005 20:25:14 GMT
"Saturn does bring form and structure to the quantum reality of Neptune..." I like this idea.
I think that's just it. Traditional associations of Saturn and Neptune have them at opposite ends of the couch, but they were both gods and both demanded more and more territory, and probably understood each others' desires more than they let on. One without the other leads to a pretty sorry state of affairs.
From my earliest envirnment through the present I have received a lot of criticism, both spoken and unspoken for being "dreamy." Mostly by my dad and husband. By my mid 20's I started to hyper-operate from other energies, especially Saturn/Uranus/Moon.
(Which reminds me, from rereading AR's post on Saturn and her husband--what happened there?)
The experience this year of this other man reawakened Neptune, (among other things....) which in my natal, sits right on my ASC with Vesta. (talk about dreamy!) this is from the book "Saturn in Transit" by Erin Sullivan:
"When a major transit (Saturn, Uranus, Neptune or Pluto) approaches a natal placement, the unconscious has already been working on the potential experience so that the full impact is actually a composite of past, present and furture. Events that occur around the time of exact contact often have a numinosity about them that seems supernatural."
This man and I met when Neptune was exact on my Chiron/Eros and Pluto was exact on his Neptune/Eros.
And now, integrating the experience, being able to let go of him as "what it was all about" has something to do with energy which will be available as Saturn transits through Leo later this year. That's why I am trying to draw the connection between Neptune and Saturn.
I love the undestanding that metaphor and symbols can inspire!
Blessings, Amoroso
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Post by Amoroso on Mar 8, 2005 20:35:54 GMT
Oh, and by the way, I think Kim wrote about "the unconscious working on how to integrate energy" in the thread "Comparing Different Kinds of Charts."
Amoroso
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Post by Amoroso on Mar 8, 2005 21:26:17 GMT
And one more thing. I NEEDED those key men in my life to provide me with that kind of sharpening. I think the problem wasn't in being too dreamy, but when one has such an ability to live in the 12th house consciousness, you don't know where you end and where someone else begins. You also are in danger of living in another reality when you are supposed to be physically solid on this plane. So I think it has all been for good, and our higher evolutionary intent is always working for that.
Ok, I REALLY have to get back to work now!
Amoroso
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Post by Kim Falconer on Mar 8, 2005 23:41:05 GMT
Amoroso, This is such a strong metaphor of your development. The "father" and "husband" (your solar purpose) impose the Saturn law and form and structure on you dreamy Neptune, creating in you pathways for that mystical inspiration to take solid form. Of course, things can be overdone, and then another comes along and says, "but remember the dream?" I get so emotional with this... I was always criticized for being a "daydreamer" and find the whole Saturn/Neptune connection very important as well. (Saturn is exact on my natal Uranus square Neptune right NOW) Thank you for all these wonderful posts! Kim
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Post by svenskasfinx on Mar 9, 2005 0:25:02 GMT
Amoroso, This is such a strong metaphor of your development. The "father" and "husband" (your solar purpose) impose the Saturn law and form and structure on you dreamy Neptune, creating in you pathways for that mystical inspiration to take solid form. Of course, things can be overdone, and then another comes along and says, "but remember the dream?" I get so emotional with this... I was always criticized for being a "daydreamer" and find the whole Saturn/Neptune connection very important as well. (Saturn is exact on my natal Uranus square Neptune right NOW) Thank you for all these wonderful posts! Kim Dear Kim and Amoroso; I like that phrase "...remember the dream" I feel the world needs a few more "day dreamers" in possitions of power, the world is quite delusional for the most extent by trying to conform people (all over the world) into an idea of what it takes to have success.. most of which are images of "Sun/Saturn" energies.. the projection but also the pragmatic and practical, and always the boundries... I'd like to think the imagination is with us for a reason, one is potentially magical, and that is "If you can imagine it, it can happen.." (both positive and negative) I like the idea of a solid manifestation of the imagination (Neptune and Saturn combined).. Sometimes the realities get you down, but we have always something wonderful and delusional called "hope". I don't consider myself so very "Neptunian" but rather some version of the pragmatic "Saturnian" with less pessimistic options. I feel that sometimes pessimisim is often a safety net for what our expectations can dream up.. it catches us all when we have the chance of falling, and gets you safely down to earth.. hopefully unharmed and ready to try again. Right now I'm having a Saturn Saturn square, trined my Neptune. I'm not exactly Pollyanna, but when the net keeps us from trying, or doesn't catch us soon enough its a problem. I'm trying to keep a level head about things myself. I have lots of things going on putting me in contact with people who are putting me at odds with my relationship with my husband (by making me question certain things) and exposing me to a strong amount of critique on my existing domestic situation. Its been a roller coaster ride to say the least. I guess that's what happens.... and if I were to do exactly what I wanted to do when I wanted to do it, I think I'd get myself in a bit of trouble, even if it were not an option - I can only hope my Saturn/Vesta combination are on my side rather than starting some of my troubles. I can't say that I've been driven to succeed by any man in general, and what I have come to realize now, without a father figure most men in my life have worked mostly AGAINST me.. in my bands, and in other areas of my life because I was a force to control...(but is not that controlable)..and men for the most part are very intimidated by such women. (I wouldn't have called myself intimidating). I once had a photography session, someone wanted to take photos of me, and from below looking up to someone I think it seems ok, but we both were shocked by how utterly DANGEROUS I looked when given a bit more of a "powerful" height. I think it was a symbol of how I express myself and that I have to be very careful with a possition of power other wise it could be used in the Wrong way. (at the same time I'm the person who doesn't like the idea of "Power" as a commodity and often have conflicts with authority figures just because I don't feel its fair if everyone doesn't get a say in things) How does the Saturn example support the idea of power? I feel by confining it into small hard structures, and locked under glass.. Or giving it to those who prove themselves worthy of it.. what ever that means. How does the Neptune example support the idea of power? perhaps by melting it down, or only giving power to certain spirtual leaders (if its the Dali Lama its ok but anyone else... NO!)..or is it like the quantum physics idea of we all being in power, impowered by our spiritual being, and motivated by the hope to do selfless acts.. These are some of the ideas that come to mind, in my dreamy state (I need sleep).. I too need to meditate on Saturn (and Vesta) and see what it is I wish for, only then will I know if its actually worth while for it to come true into a solid form or if its better as a dream.. unmanifested in the here and now but echoing inspiration and spiritual light. Keep dreaming everyone, "in dreams there is truth" svenskasfinx
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Post by Amoroso on Mar 10, 2005 1:28:56 GMT
"... but we both were shocked by how utterly DANGEROUS I looked when given a bit more of a "powerful" height. I think it was a symbol of how I express myself and that I have to be very careful with a position of power other wise it could be used in the Wrong way." Would we love to see that photo!!! I have misused several poistions of power, but not intentially. My intent was always to do the right thing, but if one is misusing power, and has become a hook for another's projected Pluto as well, the whole thing blows up. It's all about becoming self-aware, I guess, so one can use those positions wisely. "...remember the dream." Big lump in throat. Amoroso
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