Kindly Help... Token or Sign? UPDATE!

[blueorchids]

I have worked my way through this horary with my very rudimentary, novice skills. I would be grateful to hear what others see.

My question concerned the infamous Dr. of the infamous reverse double vertex ascendant conjunction fame. I asked:

Will he give/offer me a token or sign of affection ( such as a letter, email or trinket...)

I cast Ascendant Me with Him in House 7.

The first thing I notice is that the Ascendant and the Moon are both at 5 degrees. I aslo note that Sag is Rising. My Natal Rising is also Sag (and his natal vertex Sag).

Gemini Rules the 7th House. He is MERCURY at LEO 22, 9th House. I note something odd. That the sun is there to. That co-placement in 9th usually indicates interests in/"resting upon persons of a different culture. We are of different faiths and cultures.

I am JUPITER at LIBRA 18 (interesting placement for me since I spend an inordinate amount of time on social graces here-- stressing about proper emails, proper language with him, kindness without coming on, being attarctive without violating social strictures... and The Moon at LEO 5 (way too emotional and wanting not to show my hand then in exuberance inadvertently doing so?), 8th House.

LEO gets also with Libra jfine and dandy (sextile). Right?
And the Moon and Mercury are both in Leo with a conjunction upcoming. The Moon is actually moving toward Mercury.

So. My initial reaction is that yes there will be a token of affection. But Then I need to see what the Moon does.

At 5 Leo the moon will (please correct if wrong!)

Moon immediately conjuncts Saturn (which is intriguing since I have been feeling moody, a bit distraught (wet blanket-ish) and hemmed in and because I felt as though he was gone, distant detached only to find out five minutes ago that he has been out of town and just returned)

Then
Leo Moon Squares Taurus Mars (gulp)
Leo Moon Opposite Aqua Neptune at 15
Leo Moon Sextiles Libra Venus 17 (nice)
Leo Moon Trine Jupiter at Libra 18
Leo Moon Trine Sag Pluto at 21 (emotional intensity)
Finally Leo Moon Conjuncts Mercury at Leo 22

Okay what does it all mean? If I assess that properly, that sounds like a lot of emotion before the "token." But it looks like it gets better, lovely as it goes on.

Also Pluto in the first house threw me though I see it should eventually trines the Moon as it moves through. I know Leo Moon is not the hottest placement but it's not in detriment. Mercury in 9th also seems interesting given his medical science background.

Did I get any of this right or am I totally off base?? And what do you see?

In a final note I should say I have been worried about him lately as though he is overwhelmed by something and moving very far away....

[Juliet]

Hi Blueorchids, I'll give it a shot, but please remember I just started horary a month ago!

Jupiter and Mercury are in SEPARATING sextile. Only approaching aspects count in horary, while separating aspects can tell us about the question, the circumstances. I guess this points to the contact there has been beween you that inspired you to join the forum.

Since the two significators are not in aspect, we need to look at the Moon= you.
What I see is that there indeed is some stagnation ahead with that upcoming conjunction with Saturn, or you might feel stagnation. But before moon will go VOC, it will conjoin Mercury still in Leo, although it will make aspects with Mars, Venus and Pluto before it eventually can. But that conjunction with Mercury will be the last aspect it makes before changing signs.
I'm not sure how to interprete this.

Things will not evolve quickly, since Moon is in 8. That's a horary rule about timing, it's in an earlier post.
Any help, members??

All my best,
Juliet

[blueorchids]

Juliet,

Thank you for taking the time to respond and your effort to help me with this matter.

Yes, darling they are--Jupiter and Mercury-- separating in that sextile and that seems to fit my state of mind. I am verging on freaked out by this gentleman and the feelings I sense are riccocheting about. In my head and in my own correspondences (emails) I am attempting to stick with wide distance. It is an inordinately uncomfortable feeling. This isn't about bedding someone; it's about becoming almost sad if I can't write when I want. And I want to write and I don't---dare.

I am curious about the timing. It simply seems like alot of emotional traffic up ahead. I can't imagine I have the strength to handle any of that. I am barely maanaging that Saturn conjunction and I already feel that. (Trust me I am laughing at myself!)

In a recurring dream this summer, we were planting flowers. The weather was warm like now but it was into the future. I know because he had more silver in his hair.

Thanks again:

PS I was intrigued by those SUN and VENUS placements. I wonder if they represent my spouse (Sun) and his spouse (Venus)

[Amoroso]

I am wondering, should we use the third house cusp (communications) to represent him? Then he would be represented by Saturn and Uranus. Saturn and the moon (you) are conjunct.

Is it significant that Neptune is in opposition to this conjunction?

Inquiring minds want to know! Mine isn't interpreting this chart very well.

Looking forward to reading others' insights!

Amoroso

[blueorchids]

Thanks Amoroso!!!

You know I pondered that this morning but he doesn't seem Saturn. That Mercury in 9 (COMMUNICATIONS plus the science/medical seemed to suggest that that was his proper placement?. (Just noticed this Friday morning that his Mercury in his Natal Chart is actually House 9)

Also note something odd (funny)--both Mercury and the Moon are
opposite Neptune as well.

Poor little Me: Neptune-- opposite Moon

*Emotions run very high and deep now. Strange, unusual, even obsessive, feelings grip you now. These feelings are often irrational and out of character (YES!!!! very out of character for me!!!), so you are likely to squelch them (TRYING TO!!); they seem childish, exceedingly sentimental, foolish, and out of proportion.

+A tendency to escape or withdraw into your imagination at the expense of your friends and supporters. You may be unrealistic, taken with dreams, psychic matters, and the like.


Poor little him

Neptune transits opposite Mercury

*Your imagination is a bit wild at this time. You get carried away with fantasy, fiction, and metaphysical musing. Your imagination is so keen that you may project your ideals and fantasies on others, and consequently may not always accurately assess situations at this time.

+It could be easy to get carried away and to ignore facts or think in a fuzzy or deluded manner. Your ideals (what you imagine for yourself) may be challenged by the ideas and thoughts of others (me??). Communications could become blurred..!!! (I am still waiting for the medical form to arrive that he was trying to get to me.)

What do you think--sounds like him and me (well at least me! Honestly, I have not a clue what he is thinking!).

PS --- The medical form arrived in the mail today. The postmark shows that he sent it almost immediately after his email apologizing for being out of town.

PSS-- I went back and threw up my 20 favorite stars only the following seemed to add anything to the analysis:

Sappho at Leo 24 and Achilles tight to Pluto. That's it. Lilith is sitting at 13 Leo but that's wide degrees of the other Leo stuff. I'm going to bed. I'm beat. Appreciate any other feedback.

[svenskasfinx]

Ok Blueorchids;

my quick over veiw of this one is, he is represented by the 9th house as he is a doctor, yes? Ok if so, that means SUN with Mercury in there.. just as a distint characteristic of his nature.. another thing is we have with your Horary a Mutual Reception with Sun and Mercury (and thus the house Mercury represents is part of the colour he takes on.. That's right, MC or 10th house colour. (when I was just skimming this one one of the first thoughts that struck me was something to do with avoiding a conflict of interests and PROFESSION and REPUTATION..)

The Sun is in a tight, super tight aprotching opposition to Uranus (the ruler of the 3rd house) (it can possibly represent HIS mate being that the third house is the 7th from the 9th house since you were curious about how they are feeling)

He may be on the verge of a sudden spitting up, but I can't say.. not really, its going to come about what ever.. and his communications to you have been sudden and surprising as you have said.

If the ruler of the chart (we can take into acount a chart ruler and a co ruler being the Moon) Jupiter we can spectulate the time it takes for Venus and Mars (being in a degree close to the aspects to Jupiter) as significant factors for you Personally.. Venus may be in exact conjunction in a matter of a little time to Jupiter.. (perhaps love catching up to you?) but Venus represents the 6th and 11th houses. In this horary Venus is in its ruling sign, a plus to assessing its strength I recall.

Mars and Venus are falling out of aspect in a quincux (or inconjuct) meaning though that the background seems to sugest an irrepairable conflict between the motives of the two in the back ground.. Mars being the 5th house ruler in its fall in Taurus in the 6th house.. significantly weakened, and yet about to aspect Jupiter if it isn't too fast moving (the first house ruler) for some reason that eventually this imballance of 5th and 6th house energies infused with Mars will personally, perhaps physically make some kind of contact with you..something very difficult to resolve.

Now the co-ruler of the chart being the Moon.. its first major aspect, is nearly there..conjunct Saturn. This is a combination of the 2nd house and 8th house ruler..(opposites) This I feel (but not certain) will take a while to develop (but this is your move) but what will happen seems less explosive and more time related.. and if 8th to 2nd house is involved, it may have something to do with sex and movable resources.. and about being careful about both(?)..

You could use the Saturn as a co ruler of the third house as well.. then both of you are affect directly, main line to all that communication, in fact maybe with that opposition of Uranus to the Sun and your Saturn to the Moon, the communication factor effect our perception of the other.. (maybe he seems abrupt, sudden, nervous, brilliant (almost genius but confused).. where as you seem simple, straight forward, deep, perceptive, slow, emotionally repressed (?) some ideas about that saturn combination in the light of a 3rd house perspective...

He may even be less effectively communicating because he's almost exploding with communciation (?)... what ever the case 9th house ruler the Sun is in a tight approtching oppostion (a very very powerful aspect) and it represents HIM... you may just find out what's going on in a matter of days, or see this result in a matter of days, weeks, at the worst I'm thinking one whole month to a year.. due to the fact I don't recall the rules, but that aspect is almost at it's peak...

Mercury..9th, What about your husband? 7th house ruler..Mercury.. maybe what he is going though, considering, maybe it's come to a peak of activity. Mars sugests he has probably been angry, or upset. Aspects to Jupiter (you seem to sugest there was an opportunity to relate on a loving (venus as the 11th house ruler) friendly way.. Mars being related to the 5th seems to say something about 5th house issues, but also 6th house issues.. sex, love, passion, fun and health (?)..

ruler of the 7th house in the 9th house in Leo.. is your husband or "the other"..

and notice the emphisis on 9th and 8th house of this chart? Not only that, but professional reputation and friendship, 11th house ruler in the 10th house.. 1st house ruler in the 10th house..about to be in conjunction.. a blending of these energies in the 10th house in the sign of Libra. .

How does all this sound so far?

I'm a bit concerned about you having been a cancer patient because of the 8th house ruler in the 8th (in Leo) Placement seems to sugest much to do with that deep, 8th house experience...and conjunct the 2nd house.. resouces, matterial possessions.. but used as the co ruler of the 3rd house (Aquarius's co ruler is Saturn) then it seems to trasform your communications.. (just speculations) Perhaps communications as resources?

Resources communicated? Forms to do with money (a resource) and legal communication?

Any other ideas?

once again, I too am not "good" with horary, but a "life student"..

I suppose Kim will help us out a bit with this one, after we come to our conclusions.

take care,

svenskasfinx

[blueorchids]

Dear Svenskasfinx:

Well it buoyed my heart to see your response this morning. I appreciate your insight. I have to confess I do not understand all that you suggest. I am just learning and must pause and continue to research, but many things ring true or pique my interest.

First I have to tell you some things. I may need to exercise full disclosure here because so many of the same pieces seem to be falling into the same place, my lap.

Two weeks ago, someone did a Tarot read on this relationship and stated that something "abrupt" and "sudden" was happening to him and us. That ultimately, despite what I project, I would be the one who would need to take a leap (3 weeks or more). That he would approach me in the unexpected way and I must take the leap. (It seems that no matter what, everyone suggests something "Abrupt")

In a June Tarot reading, prior to my last round of cancer followup appointments, I was told by the reader that the appointments would augur well for my health and that a relationship with a strong, highly educated man would irrevocably change my life. That I would be appreciated for my sense of humor (laugh), intense feelings, intelligence and femininity. She saw other issues there (my angry unretracting spouse and legal matters, my overwhelming sadness and repressed emotion). By the way, as she indicated the tests did return in August cancer free.

Finally, a horary reading a few days after the July 28th appointment, suggested what I found to be very odd. And I immediately dismissed it but now it spooks me and gives me pause. I asked the horary reader if "He stilll liked me or if my sunny exuberance was overwhelming and killing the relationship."

It sounds banal, but it was heartfelt. Indeed, in the July 28th appointment I simply felt as though sunlight was oozing out of my pores and all over the place. I was flinching in my mind's eye, thinking, "Run, hide. he can see me! He can see that he is making me happy! So stop!" LOL.

So the horary reader says pointedly and rather brusquely. Are you certain that he's married? I see him in a abrupt marital break. And why do you ask if he still likes you??. He's so so beyond like." I won't get into all of it but she saw (us) Venus (me in that chart) and Jupiter (him) moving together toward H2. The Moon and Jupiter were already conjunct 9 degrees wide in H1) She said no matter which way she read it, she saw him unmarried (he an dI wear our bands) and moving in my direction, toward the moon and me the venus. It made me extremely nervous and as far as I know he is married, but something this summer may be afoot and I simply put it aside.

Now, to your comments:

My quick overview of this one is, he is represented by the 9th house as he is a doctor, yes? Ok if so, that means SUN with Mercury in there.. just as a distinct characteristic of his nature.. another thing is we have with your Horary a Mutual Reception with Sun and Mercury (and thus the house Mercury represents is part of the colour he takes on.. That's right, MC or 10th house colour. (when I was just skimming this one one of the first thoughts that struck me was something to do with avoiding a conflict of interests and PROFESSION and REPUTATION..)

S.,

Yes he is a doc, and his Natal is also Mercury house 9. This has never been discussed but both of us are aware and I suspect deeply concerned about this. Everything about this raises challenges. I have never been involved in an "intense" friendship with any one who has the societally prescribed upperhand (college professor, boss or doctor). We went to similar grad schools and are the same age which has opened the door to conversation and slightly broaching that line, crossing it.

It's somewhat obvious to me that neither of us make a habit of crossing lines. Also note, and I am not certain of its meaning but my natal Natal Eros sits on his MC. I find that curious and cannot understand its meaning depsite much reading on the midheaven.


The Sun is in a tight, super tight aprotching opposition to Uranus (the ruler of the 3rd house) (it can possibly represent HIS mate being that the third house is the 7th from the 9th house since you were curious about how they are feeling)

He may be on the verge of a sudden splitting up, but I can't say.. not really, its going to come about what ever.. and his communications to you have been sudden and surprising as you have said.

S.,
This reflects the "odd" post July 28th reading where the reader asked was he married. And I insisted that he was. I know he is in some kind of turmoil because he has been falling on and off my radar in harsh abrupt manner. Hard to explain.

If the ruler of the chart (we can take into acount a chart ruler and a co ruler being the Moon) Jupiter we can spectulate the time it takes for Venus and Mars (being in a degree close to the aspects to Jupiter) as significant factors for you Personally.. Venus may be in exact conjunction in a matter of a little time to Jupiter.. (perhaps love catching up to you?) but Venus represents the 6th and 11th houses. In this horary Venus is in its ruling sign, a plus to assessing its strength I recall.

S.,
In her post July 28 reading, she ended by saying the Moon and Jupiter were conjunct, sitting in the first house with the Moon approaching --9 degrees separation. And the final aspects of the Moon would be Moon conjunct him --Jupiter in H1 and Moon sextiling Sun. Also Venus in 12 House would sextiling Jupiter. She didn't mention time. I did not ask.


Mars and Venus are falling out of aspect in a quincux (or inconjuct) meaning though that the background seems to sugest an irrepairable conflict between the motives of the two in the back ground.. Mars being the 5th house ruler in its fall in Taurus in the 6th house.. significantly weakened, and yet about to aspect Jupiter if it isn't too fast moving (the first house ruler) for some reason that eventually this imballance of 5th and 6th house energies infused with Mars will personally, perhaps physically make some kind of contact with you..something very difficult to resolve.

I did not understand this but it sounds bad?

"...the communication factor effect our perception of the other.. (maybe he seems abrupt, sudden, nervous, brilliant (almost genius but confused).. where as you seem simple, straight forward, deep, perceptive, slow, emotionally repressed (?) some ideas about that saturn combination in the light of a 3rd house perspective..."

S.,

Dead on there. Absolutely true.

He may even be less effectively communicating because he's almost exploding with communciation (?)... what ever the case 9th house ruler the Sun is in a tight approtching oppostion (a very very powerful aspect) and it represents HIM... you may just find out what's going on in a matter of days, or see this result in a matter of days, weeks, at the worst I'm thinking one whole month to a year.. due to the fact I don't recall the rules, but that aspect is almost at it's peak...


S.,

I know something is going on. I just sense it and it feels abrupt. I just don't know what. What do you think I am going to see? Everyone is saying abrupt, sudden. My solar return this year uses those words constantly. I still have PLUTO going through my first house, way past the ascendant thank god@!

Mercury..9th, What about your husband? 7th house ruler..Mercury.. maybe what he is going though, considering, maybe it's come to a peak of activity. Mars sugests he has probably been angry, or upset. Aspects to Jupiter (you seem to sugest there was an opportunity to relate on a loving (venus as the 11th house ruler) friendly way.. Mars being related to the 5th seems to say something about 5th house issues, but also 6th house issues.. sex, love, passion, fun and health (?)..


S.,

We are getting along as we always do, quietly. Though I sense that he knows something is afoot as I have been so to myself, alone this summer and more likely to stick up for myself if I think he says something not so nice.

ruler of the 7th house in the 9th house in Leo.. is your husband or "the other"..

S.,

My husband is natal Gemini with natal Leo stellium...., Saturn on Ascendant Cap...

and notice the emphisis on 9th and 8th house of this chart? Not only that, but professional reputation and friendship, 11th house ruler in the 10th house.. 1st house ruler in the 10th house..about to be in conjunction.. a blending of these energies in the 10th house in the sign of Libra. .

S.,
What did you mean here?

How does all this sound so far?
Well. You sound bloody brilliant. That's all. LOL


'm a bit concerned about you having been a cancer patient because of the 8th house ruler in the 8th (in Leo) Placement seems to sugest much to do with that deep, 8th house experience...and conjunct the 2nd house.. resouces, matterial possessions.. but used as the co ruler of the 3rd house (Aquarius's co ruler is Saturn) then it seems to trasform your communications.. (just speculations) Perhaps communications as resources?

Resources communicated? Forms to do with money (a resource) and legal communication?

Any other ideas?

S.,
God I hope there is nothing legal here or more health problems? I was waiting for referral form for a standard preventive health exam. He sent it with no other note inside. It arrived as I was asking for help on the horary.

I must say however, that we use communication about forms and medical care (at least I do) as a way to communicate friendship. Perhaps an excuse to move closer? I never wish to speak for others. I barely speak well for myself. And this matter so touches my soul. So, I will say that I used to use those communications as a way ot be friendlier. Suddenly, recently I have been able to sort of dispense with that and just be me, friendly, straight to the heart.



"Once again, I too am not "good" with horary, but a "life student"..

Thanks kindly. I see someone who has mastered much-- not so much a student.

I suppose Kim will help us out a bit with this one, after we come to our conclusions.

S.,

I really hope so but has the baby come yet?. Oh baby, baby. She is busy I am sure!


-Thanks again.

Blueorchids

[Amoroso]

Dear BO

You seem to have done a wonderful job tying Svenskasvinx's observations to your experience.

S IS brilliant! She has helped me many, many times. One of the reasons I am so grateful for this forum.

Let me say that I really understand the journey you are on, both personally and with this man.

I am on a similar journey, but I have no desire to leave my husband even though my long-cherished and deep-seated views about marriage are changing. Sometimes the more you understand, the less things make sense.

Deep breaths!! This is a phrase Kim has used with me several times, and the funny thing is, it is a phrase my mother always used with me.

Blessings,
Amoroso

[svenskasfinx]

blueorchids said:

....The Sun is in a tight, super tight aprotching opposition to Uranus (the ruler of the 3rd house) (it can possibly represent HIS mate being that the third house is the 7th from the 9th house since you were curious about how they are feeling)

He may be on the verge of a sudden splitting up, but I can't say.. not really, its going to come about what ever.. and his communications to you have been sudden and surprising as you have said.

S.,
This reflects the "odd" post July 28th reading where the reader asked was he married. And I insisted that he was. I know he is in some kind of turmoil because he has been falling on and off my radar in harsh abrupt manner. Hard to explain.

I was speculating with the 3rd being the 7th to the 9th house... you see it could be problems with partners, who are not involved with marrage also... think about what the 7th house means and takes on.. married partners yes, but also buisness partners and contractual obligations.. but for some reason I assumed marriage partner only because you personally mentioned in one post he was married. 7th house can also represent ENIMIES and Other people you must answer to: Those who are Equal to you in your obligations...(but marriage is the most common theme with 7th house)

blueorchids said:

If the ruler of the chart (we can take into acount a chart ruler and a co ruler being the Moon) Jupiter we can spectulate the time it takes for Venus and Mars (being in a degree close to the aspects to Jupiter) as significant factors for you Personally.. Venus may be in exact conjunction in a matter of a little time to Jupiter.. (perhaps love catching up to you?) but Venus represents the 6th and 11th houses. In this horary Venus is in its ruling sign, a plus to assessing its strength I recall.

S.,
In her post July 28 reading, she ended by saying the Moon and Jupiter were conjunct, sitting in the first house with the Moon approaching --9 degrees separation. And the final aspects of the Moon would be Moon conjunct him --Jupiter in H1 and Moon sextiling Sun. Also Venus in 12 House would sextiling Jupiter. She didn't mention time. I did not ask.

Interesting information there.. more about syncronicity that was at work with this horary question.. but remember to try to see the questions as seperate and although I personally see MANY synctronicities within Horary, one of the traditional rules was not to compare previous Horary to the recent one and not to Compare it to the Horary to the Natal... however being that Kim has shown that they can work that way.. due to the syncronicity factors (for example that 9th house Mercury).. please try not to read so much into the information that I give you to previous information.. but I understand the enthusiasum .

blueorchids said:

...Mars and Venus are falling out of aspect in a quincux (or inconjuct) meaning though that the background seems to sugest an irrepairable conflict between the motives of the two in the back ground.. Mars being the 5th house ruler in its fall in Taurus in the 6th house.. significantly weakened, and yet about to aspect Jupiter if it isn't too fast moving (the first house ruler) for some reason that eventually this imballance of 5th and 6th house energies infused with Mars will personally, perhaps physically make some kind of contact with you..something very difficult to resolve.

I did not understand this but it sounds bad?

well.. I don't think bad and good are easy to determine even with an inconjuct (quincux) in a Horary chart..When we think about the human nature and Venus and Mars to begin with.. having the two in tension actually makes us want it more.. I would consider this tension between Jupiter and Mars something that may actually (and suddenly) experess itself physically..

blueorchids said:

He may even be less effectively communicating because he's almost exploding with communciation (?)... what ever the case 9th house ruler the Sun is in a tight approtching oppostion (a very very powerful aspect) and it represents HIM... you may just find out what's going on in a matter of days, or see this result in a matter of days, weeks, at the worst I'm thinking one whole month to a year.. due to the fact I don't recall the rules, but that aspect is almost at it's peak...


S.,

I know something is going on. I just sense it and it feels abrupt. I just don't know what. What do you think I am going to see? Everyone is saying abrupt, sudden. My solar return this year uses those words constantly. I still have PLUTO going through my first house, way past the ascendant thank god@!

Well it seems something has been personally happening to him..no matter what, I think when it happens it will be hard for him to deny it.

blueorchids said:

...and notice the emphisis on 9th and 8th house of this chart? Not only that, but professional reputation and friendship, 11th house ruler in the 10th house.. 1st house ruler in the 10th house..about to be in conjunction.. a blending of these energies in the 10th house in the sign of Libra. .

[/b]

S.,
What did you mean here?[/quote]
I meant here with the 8th and 9th sounds like legal matters or learning methods.. 11th house ruler in the 10th house seems to say something about how people view this friendship, in Libra, a partnership.. Your doctor may too have feelings of partnership with you dealing with your healing..(Libra is a clasic Partnership/contractual obligation sign) Venus is the ruler of the 11th house.. so my judgement wich may or may not be true, a very loving friendship.. with sexual tension... dealing with the Mars/Venus aspect previous to the question, and Mars's movement to aspect to Jupiter...something which may not be easy to restrain, or will be restrained until it explodes. (quincux aspect)

blueorchids said:

How does all this sound so far?
Well. You sound bloody brilliant. That's all. LOL

*blush* thanks for your feed back

blueorchids said:

I'm a bit concerned about you having been a cancer patient because of the 8th house ruler in the 8th (in Leo) Placement seems to sugest much to do with that deep, 8th house experience...and conjunct the 2nd house.. resouces, matterial possessions.. but used as the co ruler of the 3rd house (Aquarius's co ruler is Saturn) then it seems to trasform your communications.. (just speculations) Perhaps communications as resources?

Resources communicated? Forms to do with money (a resource) and legal communication?

Any other ideas?

S.,
God I hope there is nothing legal here or more health problems? I was waiting for referral form for a standard preventive health exam. He sent it with no other note inside. It arrived as I was asking for help on the horary.

I must say however, that we use communication about forms and medical care (at least I do) as a way to communicate friendship. Perhaps an excuse to move closer? I never wish to speak for others. I barely speak well for myself. And this matter so touches my soul. So, I will say that I used to use those communications as a way to be friendlier. Suddenly, recently I have been able to sort of dispense with that and just be me, friendly, straight to the heart.

I've been thinking about this after your wording, I give you this thought due to the 8th house and so much disclosure given here (not so fast next time ) I think it has seriously to do with this clandestined communication.. and eventually if it is your choice or his, the relationship will be in secret. It seems oviously not just a friendly gesture, (that's what the question was) and I think secretly you know that..

I also forget to say, the 12th house ruler is in the first house coming into approtching aspect to Jupiter, and Venus there as well.. it says to me that you will be more yourself, and that this is part of a healing process for you. 12th house ruler in the first sugests YOU are the patiant.. a powerful one (Pluto) but none the less someone who also has "an upper hand".

My take on what I see here to sew up a conclusion if you like, it seems to be saying, he may be afraid of being unethical in his relationship to you considering he is the Doctor, and you are the powerful (Pluto) patiant, maybe he's afraid of legal action so he's not really attempted to communicate outside of the area of forms previously himself.


Thank you for putting up with my confused spouting off of information...

And thank you Amoroso for your kind words as well! I'm writing this while my son is annoying his father who wants to sleep extra time.. forgive me for not always being here when I should, and having to wait a while for answers.

take care,

svenskasfinx

[blueorchids]

Dear Svenskasfinx,

Thank you for returning and responding. I came in the Studio this morning to work and it's good to have your words to consider. And of course, as always, it is good for me to think (ha Gem Sun Merc), think alot! It prevents me from doing anything horrifically rash (smile).

First I want to say, that from where I sit, 90% of what you say seems to be entirely plausible if not simply accurate. I won't belabor this response as you have been so very thoughtful and giving of your time. I know there are others like me stressed, if not overwhelmed with their own tough questions. So...

"... with the 3rd being the 7th to the 9th house... you see it could be problems with partners, who are not involved with marriage also... think about what the 7th house means and takes on.. married partners yes, but also business partners and contractual obligations.. but for some reason I assumed marriage partner only because you personally mentioned in one post he was married. 7th house can also represent ENEMIES and Other people you must answer to: Those who are Equal to you in your obligations...(but marriage is the most common theme with 7th house)"

S.,
Interestingly, he left a hospital staff years ago when I first began with him as a patient so he is in a solo private practice (no partners). I believe he is married, perhaps in turmoil but still married. Your read, my read, other readers focus on marriage--whatever its state is probably dead on.

"please try not to read so much into the information that I give you to previous information.. but I understand the enthusiasm."

S.,
Thanks for that tip. It helps me, and it reduces confusion. Some of this stuff is nonetheless uncanny and perhaps evidence that your assessments are not just relevant but correct. The synchronicity is sort of breathtaking.

"Well.. I don't think bad and good are easy to determine even with an inconjunct (quincux) in a Horary chart..When we think about the human nature and Venus and Mars to begin with.. having the two in tension actually makes us want it more.. I would consider this tension between Jupiter and Mars something that may actually (and suddenly) express itself physically.. "

S.,
Unless I become ill or medical tests arrive with questionable or not so good results, I am not scheduled to see him until October 31.

"Well it seems something has been personally happening to him..no matter what, I think when it happens it will be hard for him to deny it."

S.,
I just feel in my soul that he is suffering. While sending themedical forms he did not respond to the last very brief email.

"Venus is the ruler of the 11th house.. so my judgment which may or may not be true, a very loving friendship.. with sexual tension... dealing with the Mars/Venus aspect previous to the question, and Mars's movement to aspect to Jupiter...something which may not be easy to restrain, or will be restrained until it explodes. (Quincux aspect)

Well, that first part, anyway. LOL.... I am happy that you see. I torture myself. I say consistently I don't want to be an overwhelmed human being living this out alone in my head. If you are in this journey together, you feel that you can calm your nerves. We have brief conversations and we have never disclosed our feelings about each other one way or the other. I know how I feel and his look, his voice are so often plaintive.

Dear god, the issue of restraint....restraint..restraint. So far, a 14 year marriage, a rigid Catholic girls school education, and a Saturn trine Venus in my natal has allowed me to "act appropriately." How do I feel inside? Like I am dying and spilling over at the same time.


"I've been thinking about this after your wording, I give you this thought due to the 8th house and so much disclosure given here (not so fast next time ) I think it has seriously to do with this clandestine communication.. and eventually if it is your choice or his, the relationship will be in secret. It seems obviously not just a friendly gesture, (that's what the question was) and I think secretly you know that.. "

Honestly? It's odd about the secrecy. After my last surgery and followup treament in April, I gave him a cookbook (I told my husband). He cooks and had shared that with me. So I had to special order this book.

Yet, the bond even at this stage it is somewhat secretive. To me, it's clandestine because the way it makes my heart feel is entirely overwhelming and otherworldly. My sister is the only one who knows any of how I feel. My mother is no longer here though I suspect I would have talked with her an ddo sometimes late at night when I am alone. I don't share my feelings with many people anyway.

I once asked him if anyone else reads his emails first. And he said very earnestly, "No, absolutely not, ever." So despite it seeming to be so little, it is clandestine, perhaps on both sides.

The thing on the "gesture" though was not clear --sorry. No. No. I had been told weeks ago, that it was not in my head despite my insistence that it was.

I asked would he offer or send me a gesture of affection, a token or sign of how he in effect feels. He does NOT email me unless in response. And I have been pulling back from speaking or communicating with him until the next visit.

I also forget to say, the 12th house ruler is in the first house coming into approaching aspect to Jupiter, and Venus there as well.. it says to me that you will be more yourself, and that this is part of a healing process for you. 12th house ruler in the first suggests YOU are the patient.. a powerful one (Pluto) but none the less someone who also has "an upper hand".

S.,
This statement made me gasp. I am trying to be more myself. What is that with him? It means being warm without fear of reprisal. Interesting about Pluto and how you perceive me as also having an upper hand. To be frank, I think that is good. I think I have to force myself to see my role and responsibility in the coming year.

"My take on what I see here to sew up a conclusion if you like, it seems to be saying, he may be afraid of being unethical in his relationship to you considering he is the Doctor, and you are the powerful (Pluto) patient, maybe he's afraid of legal action so he's not really attempted to communicate outside of the area of forms previously himself."

S.,
This is 100% accurate. How do I know? I simply do. I know this like I know my name. In the beginning he would never email. Now he does, and occasionally when he has slipped out of a medical role and has been personal, funny or kind, he has immediately pulled back. I see it; I feel it. He is very warm on the phone and warmer in the office, but that has no "legal repercussions" I know. The wavering look on his face is palpable. I do nothing but ensure him that I respect his privacy and my own.

"Thank you for putting up with my confused spouting off of information... "

S.,
Not confused...not spouting off. Provocative and insightful and very, very helpful. I will attempt to keep you up to date as it unfolds.

Be well and thanks again,

Blue Orchids

[Amoroso]

Dear BO:

Your posts remind me of when I first found Kim's forum and felt I had found a safe place to explore what was awakening in me. I think author Colleen McCullough's intro to her book "The Thorn Birds" sums things up:

Long Ago, there was a bird who sang just once in its life.
From the moment it left its nest, it searched for a thorn tree.
and it never rested until it found one.
Then it began to sing more sweetly
than any other creature on the face of the earth.
And singing, it impaled its breast on the longest, sharpest thorn.
But as it was dying, it rose above its own agony
to out-sing the lark and the nightingale.
The thornbird pays its life for that one song
and the whole world stills to listen
and God, in His heaven~smiles.
And its best was bought only at the cost of great pain.
Driven to the thorn, with no knowledge of the dying to come.
But when we press the thorn to our breast,
We know........
We understand.....
And still......we do it.

Blessings on your journey,
Amoroso

[blueorchids]

Thanks Amoroso. Did you know that is one of my favorite books and even the gut wrenching movie (I confess)...One of my mom's favorite lines/scene was when Mary Carson rails on the meanness of aging...how your heart is still young and wanting but your body aging and unappealing.... I fear I am going to fall on that thorn....


S.,

Not to be dense/stupid. So is the answer to this question with the Mercury and Moon conjuncting as the last aspect Yes he will offer a sign of affection or --No he's afraid of being sued... LOL....

You get what I mean.
Thanks

[svenskasfinx]

blueorchids said:

S.,

Not to be dense/stupid. So is the answer to this question with the Mercuru and Moon conjuncting as the last aspect Yes he willoffer a sign of affection or No he's afraid of being sued... LOL....

As I keep saying,

I don't know! that Mercury as the last aspect AFTER the Fact doesn't seem to mean anything to me.. but the last aspect the Moon makes before the question and its meaning is bouncing around the threads in this forum..

and in this chart, its not obvious... since the Moon in your horary chart was VOC before your question and coming into direct aspect with Saturn.

I look to the meaning of Saturn here... Other aspects with planets seem to sugest that if we take into account things BEFORE the question it was certainly a provokative Mars/Venus quincux... an unsolvable aspect in horary, this my theory is that there was a tension that you couldn't get your head around that provoked you to ask this question.

I see the last aspect (or first aspect) as conjunction to Saturn. (that's the only way I know how to read these things) It indicates something about 2nd house (and 8th house due to its contact with the Moon ruling the 8th in the horary chart) but also 3rd house issues (communications being ONE of those) seeing that Saturn co-rules Aquarious, the 3rd house ruler in this chart.

Top that off with Uranus (third house co-ruler) in coming close to tight opposition with the Sun (HIS ruling planet) and being the question was about commucations, being either kindly or meaning something more.. I feel you will find out soon enough.. and abruptly enough.. either by a sudden cutting off of communcations with him, Or the reverse and he spills his guts..

With the ruler of the first house (co ruling YOU the questioner) and with Venus suddenly coming close to conjuction what ever the case, you will be "sitting pretty" but still may find a bit of tension that will be unresolved.

That is how I read it.

I know other people may see other things there. I hope that I've been clear enough... I hope that everything is ok in the mean time.

be well and take care,

svenskasfinx

P.S. sorry I didn't get to your final question.. I didn't notice it as a question.. forgive me .

[blueorchids]

Thanks alot S.


"I feel you will find out soon enough.. and abruptly enough.. either by a sudden cutting off of communcations with him, Or the reverse and he spills his guts..

With the ruler of the first house (co ruling YOU the questioner) and with Venus suddenly coming close to conjuction what ever the case, you will be "sitting pretty" but still may find a bit of tension that will be unresolved. "


Well speaking of being cut off...I had not emailed him in 8 or 9 days because I just felt so so weird. But I gave in to myself and emailed him just now to say the medical forms had arrived and thank you. It will be interesting to see if he bothers writing back. If he doesn't I am dead meat and October 31st will be interesting I am sure.

Thanks again.

PS; Well that aside, It would be good to be "sitting pretty". Gosh in thi case, I could use that even with tension.

[Kim Falconer]

Hi all--this is a wonderful thread and I so wish I had time to read all the comments and insights. I'll get back to it if I can.

Look at the Moon on Saturn at 5 degrees trine the Asc and sextile the Descendant.!!!!

BlueOrchids, my initial take is that you (moon) and the sign you are after (Saturn as traditional ruler of the 3 house of 'messages') are one. You've already received it!

What you FEEL is his message to you. It's been sent.

Trust you intuition--it has all the answers on this one--the actual mundane events are irrelevant to the experience of feelings.

I'll read through and comment more technically and thoroughly if I can...

I just wanted to say that straight up.

Warmly,
Kim