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Post by tara on Jun 29, 2004 5:11:43 GMT
Hello Kim,
I have natal Saturn in the 7th. In another forum I go to someone else brought this topic up and said a marriage before the first Saturn Return would almost surely fail, for someone with this natal placement. And alot of people agreed.
What are your thoughs on this? Have you noticed this at all in your observations?
By transit, Saturn will be entering my 7th house in July. I've got a little over two years until it will reach my natal Saturn placed near my 8th house cusp. But I'm curious to your thoughs on this.
I know this placement makes me have a serious outlook on relationships. When I commit to someone, alot of thought has gone into it before I do. I also don't mind being alone, if I want, or have to be.
Any thoughs?
Thank you, tara
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Post by Kim Falconer on Jun 30, 2004 1:02:21 GMT
In another forum I go to someone else brought this topic up and said a marriage before the first Saturn Return would almost surely fail, for someone with this natal placement. Do I agree? Ha. What a load of rubbish! "Almost surly fail?" Like what, 99% chance of failure? They are kidding, right? Statistically, half of all marriages fail, wherever you Saturn is. Early marriages may be a bit shakier, and pre-Saturn return people are under 30, so that may tip the scale a percentage or two. Saying that most 7th house Pre-Saturn return people will surely divorce is a ridiculous and destructive belief. It isn’t observable in my data base, and my data base is huge. Whoever purports this bit of misinformation perhaps needs to do some review. Where Saturn is in the natal chart is where we take things seriously, where we feel tested, run into our dark shadows, where we find our vulnerability, self-disgust and also our greatest potential, ambition and goals. It can be a place of great failure and great achievement, the operant word is GREAT. Where Saturn resides, things are terribly important. Why? Because that is the area of life were we meet the ways and means of finding inner wholeness, inner completion. Saturn in the 7th says DON’T LOOK FOR INNER PEACE AND COMPLETION IN A PARTNER, LOOK FOR IT IN YOURSELF. When 7th house Saturn people get that, they form some pretty amazing relationships, reflections of their own self-development. That can happen at the first Saturn opposition (age 14), the second square (21) the first return 29ish) or NEVER! It’s up to the individual. Does this make sense? Blanket statements like “most will surely fail” are meaningless and unhelpful. Who says these things? Those would be my thoughts, Tara. ;)Kim
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Post by kiyomi on Jul 8, 2004 12:51:42 GMT
Hi tara,
i also have natal Saturn in the 7th house. who on this forum said that a marriage before the first satrun fails??(or did you misunderstand me when i wrote something about the saturn in the 7th house??) i never wrote that.
I don't agree with this, as i got married when i was only 22. i am now 31 years old and still married.
All those years are sort of "tests". not only the relationship itself but also the environment that i've been in after a marrige has brought me a lot of challenges. I now realized that i can't alwasy rely on my partner for security, but as Kim said, I've quite understood the meaning now. "don't look for peace and completion in partners but look for it in your self". but it dosen't mean that i don't need a partner,then.
It may mean that even if you are with a parter, you will have to always look for the meaning in your life in your self, not on your partner. First you need to learn to be happy with yourself if your marrige want it to work, and it takes a lot of works on your part, and time and patiece as well.
Kim is right, whenerver your saturn is, a lot of marriage fail anyway-
Kiyomi
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Post by tara on Jul 9, 2004 18:17:24 GMT
Hi Kiyomi, What I said was, "in another forum I go to". I didnt mean on this site. Don' t worry I wasnt accusing you of writing something like that. I understand and agree with what Kim posted. I actually DON"T look for "completion in a partner". My posting was just merely a question to Kim's observations on this. Because what I was reading on the other site, started to get me thinking. I wondered if she found this common, at all. She didnt, and I believe what she writes, more than other's casual observations, and juvinile attempts at interperting this. Not to take anything away from them. This is just what appears to them to be truth by the negativeness they see in Saturn's meaning. Kim's post was reassuring, to the things I already felt. This topic actually just came up again in this other forum. I plan on posting parts of what Kim wrote on this. Just so all of the other "Saturn in the 7th's" can relax a little. It's got them all thinking they will never marry, or it won't work out if they marry too young. Another good one was, "these people will easily marry for money instead of love". For status and the like. How insulting!!! And completely silly to make such broad and negative conclusions. Just wanted to clear this up. Believe me I more ahead of the game than you may think. I understand everything that's been posted on this. Have a great day! tara
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Post by Kim Falconer on Jul 9, 2004 23:09:13 GMT
Hi Tara,
I am glad my post helped. I feel strongly about these kinds of blanket statements that make assumptions without understanding the symbols and their meaning. Marry for Money? Oh, come on! That is insulting.
A more healthy and creative way of looking at it is to understand what MONEY represents, symbolizes. If you look deeper at that, it may in some ways mirror the kind of person Saturn in the 7th is drawn to. Money might reflect ambition and drive (Saturn). It could associate with the obtainment of position and power in society (Saturn) or someone older, wiser and well-established (Saturn). If you have Saturn in the 7th, you marry for Saturn. Saying you marry for money is like saying you like strawberries because they are red. It’s just too superficial and irrelevant, unless you start to explore the deeper meanings.
Unfortunately, these shallow statements about Saturn (or any other planet) can create destructive beliefs for those who do not explore deeper. In a sense, it can be a self-fulfilling prophesy. A little ‘mis-knowledge’ is harmful unless, like for you Tara, it spurs you to learn more. I hope that all those worried about their 7th house do the same.
Quote me all you like, as long as it is in context. I would probably leave out the “who says this kind of rubbish?” I don’t think anyone be receptive if they are on the defensive! I was just letting you see how strongly I feel about these hollow “one liners”.
Who else on this forum has an outer planet (Saturn through to Pluto) in the 7th house? I would love to keep this thread going. There is so much to explore. (If you want to talk about Sedna in the 7th, great! Let’s put it in the “new Discoveries” thread as I have links to information there and it’s good to keep it all together. Ta)
Warmly, Kim
PS Kiyomi, I liked what you said about Saturn linking to TESTS and CHALLENGES in your marriage. This is often the case. What do you think is the “gold” that Saturn leads to? What would you say is the greatest gift of your marriage?
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Post by kiyomi on Jul 10, 2004 22:49:27 GMT
tara, i am gald that we cleared the misunderstanding up. i thought you mentioned my post somewhere in a past as i did ask Kim about my natal satrun in the 7th house.
Kim wrote:- "PS Kiyomi, I liked what you said about Saturn linking to TESTS and CHALLENGES in your marriage. This is often the case. What do you think is the “gold” that Saturn leads to? What would you say is the greatest gift of your marriage? "
I personally think that the "gold" Satrun leads to is actually overcoming "shadows" /weakness in my charactor. I certainly did NOT get married for money .
My partner is from Europe, and i'm from asia, and over the past 10 years i've been living in abroad.
I've always worked in the past, and realized that especially in a working environment, i would often find my self in a situation where i always have to "give" yet nothing comes back in return. so actually, i am not exajarating when i say that in those 10 years what i've been learning is not only about the job itself in the office but also to be able to say "NO" and fight up for myself if someone mistreated me. I've also had to learn to ASK for what i need/want in the hard way.
Those ability to say NO and fight for my self were lacking inside me before i got married, and acutally my partner is very good at those things. In the past , when i was with my partner , even if i felt not listened or not able to say "NO" to the very unreasonal requests by others, my partner would say "NO" to them instead of me (as i did not have courage to do so) so i felt very secure. but that was only when i was with him. so obviously, when i am alone in the office with other colleagues, i have to do everything alone.
since i live as a foreigher here in italy, many people mistreated me, especially in the office as i am the only asian woman in my section (others are all italian). everyone came against me in one period, that was very hard as i had no one who stood beside me in the office yet i fought back alone when some of my colleagues did some wrongdoings to me.
this experience have taught me that in life, only myself can actually live my life, not even my partner can live my life for me nor protect me for good.
I will be going back to my country with my family- this is another big challenge, as we will have to start everything from scratch.
I think that the greatest gift of marriage is still yet to come ( i hope!) in the future. But one thing very certain is that i've become very strong especially mentally, and those hard experiences definately have helped deepened my emotions, too. i've also become very displined and organized(very saturnian qualities) and gained a lot of self-confidence as well.
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Post by Kim Falconer on Jul 12, 2004 13:22:44 GMT
Thanks Kiyomi, for all your insights into Saturn in the 7th. I think it is really helpful to share experiences in this way, especially with the planets perceived as “more challenging.” I’d love to hear from those with Chiron, Uranus, Neptune or Pluto in the 7th as well as continue with Saturn discussions. Any one out there with a “biggie” in the 7th? What are your thoughts?
Thanks again, Kim
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Post by Juliet on Jul 13, 2004 1:15:40 GMT
Hi to you all,
I have both Pluto and Uranus in 7, although Pluto (0 deg Virgo) is only 2 degrees removed from cusp 8... Find it hard to draw any conclusions, but my partners (only three) were whimsical and unconventional, unusually intuitive AND technically gifted men. I'm trying hard to 'own' Uranus in 7, because I can do without the whimsical stuff (and my own), that's for sure! There's more constructive behaviour to space and freedom than impulsive acting out.
Uranus is my most frequently aspected planet, among others aspects Virgo Sun in 8 (semisextile 1 deg), Cap Moon conj AS (quincunx 0 deg), thus quincunx Cap As, Virgo Mercury in 8 (semisquare 1 deg) , Li Jup in 8 (4 deg Sextile), and Sag Saturn in 11 (trine 1 deg). My current boyfriend has Virgo Uranus trine Cap Sun, square Can Moon and trine Aq Mercury, and wide (7 deg) opposite Ar Saturn, and I feel best at ease with him, because he understands that my need for individual freedom does not hamper my feelings for him, and I learnt that his need for individual freedom even contributed to our relationship, a thing I definitely had to learn! I was a sucker for dramatic deeds of interdependence... (Pluto in 7??) The other two felt severely threathened by my needs, and I guess they were not so far of the mark, because I always 'wandered', and am very faithful right now.. My (8 deg Sag) and my bf's Saturn (6,5 deg Ar) and my Uranus (9 deg Leo) make a grand Fire trine. An element we both lack. There's another grand trine between my Sco Nep, his Can Moon and Pis Mars.
Pluto in 7 manifested itself in my longest relationship (22 years) in extremely dominant behaviour by my ex boyfriend (of course I've never been married, although we have three kids). I've gotten to know my own quite dominant personality in the last four years and express it in more constructive ways nowadays, especially in my work... My conscious relationship needs have evolved from interdepedence and drama to friendship and cooperation. Uranus stuff?? I even see myself married some day...
Juliet
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Post by Kim Falconer on Jul 14, 2004 0:16:29 GMT
Hi Juliet,
Thanks for those insights into Uranus/Pluto in the 7th. There is a whole generation of those with Uranus/Pluto within 30 or so degrees or conjunct in Virgo. When it lands in the 7th, personal one-to-one relationships do take on an “irregular” flavour! Accepting that the traditional approach may not be the first one you grab for is important. My 7th house cups is Aquarius, and with Uranus presiding over the affairs of this house, I am anything but typical.
Thanks again for the contribution.
Warmly, Kim
PS I love the Dragon!
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Post by tara on Jul 15, 2004 7:28:15 GMT
Hi girls! Just checking back in here tonight. Kyiomi, I'm glad we cleared this up too. I also have had a hard time learning to say No to people in the past. When I was younger, I could not say no to anyone. I was VERY shy, and just wanted to make everyone happy - even if it made me unhappy. For the most part I have overcome this now. I still like to make people happy, but now in a healthier way, for everyone involved, including myself. You know, I just thought about this.....I have Capricorn rising, and Saturn being Cap.'s Ruler, placed in my 7th - could be what made me so shy when I was younger. I mean, Capricorns can be reserved and quiet around people and Saturn in the house of one on one relations, could maybe make this stronger. I was "painfully" shy. I am still quiet and a bit shy around people and some have sometimes percieved this as snobbiness. Then when they have gotten to know me - they see that it is not this at all. It's just who I am. Quite the opposite actually. Anyway, I believe Saturn's placement in my 7th has had a huge effect in my life by making me *learn about myself through others*. I think this is true for everyone really. But this lesson is deeper and more important to those with this placement. I am constantly shocked at how much I learn about who I am, what I want, and how to treat others, through my close relationships. I feel I have learnt more about myself through relationships, than I could have if I were on my own. Which is actually something I have to fight -(wanting to be alone). Ever since I can remember I have always prefered to be single. Relationships have always been such a downer, or so much work (Saturn! ) But I know that I shouldnt be avoiding them - that I have much I NEED to learn THROUGH them. For years I'd say "I just want to move out into the woods, with a couple of dogs, alot of books and live peacefully by myself." LOL But my Saturn in the 7th won't let me! But its crazy, because at the same time, Ive always yearned so strongly for that "perfect union". I'd dream about finding that ONE person who "fits" me completely. (who doesnt?) Maybe it's my critical nitpicky Virgo moon, who is never happy with what I've found. I know I must first find what I'm looking for within, if I am ever to find that person outside. When you are not happy with what you see in others, it is really your Self telling you to look at what you are unhappy with within. I have to say right now I am in a great relationship, with a sweet Taurus (his moon's exactally on my Sun). But I have my doubts, here and there. Which is normal I guess. Relationships are so TOUGH for me sometimes. I feel like just running away, and not having to deal with people anymore. But I guess this is alot of what Sat in 7th is about. I look to the positive of it too. I think I have the potential to fulfill my deepest desires and dreams through a relationship or marriage, eventually. I look forward to being in a healthy, positive relationship, that stands the test of time. This would probably be one of my biggest wishes for this lifetime. Can you believe I can say that, after saying I want to run off into the hills and become a hermit!! ;D Well, I thank you all for your insightfull thoughts, as always. Look forward to hearing more if you have any. BTW, Kim, when I quoted you in the other forum - I didnt use your name - I just said it was a reply I got back from "a very well known name in astrology" on this subject. I was thinking just what you were - that some people could get on the defesive and I also didnt ask you if you minded me quoting you. And those that arent familiar with you and your wonderful work, might take it the wrong way. So I decided to just post it like that. And you know what? That thread just kind of died right after that! I guess it gave some of those people food for thought. Thanks again, talk to you soon! Take care, all! tara
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Post by Kim Falconer on Jul 16, 2004 23:27:50 GMT
Tara,
Thanks for your insightful comments about Saturn in the Seventh and Capricorn rising. When you said, “I look forward to being in a healthy, positive relationship, that stands the test of time.” I though, THAT is SATURN speaking! All the Saturn in the 7th words are in that one sentence, especially “Test of Time.”
I also understand the painful shyness of the Capricorn Ascendant or even Saturn conjunct the Ascendant. It can take a lot of work and a lot of years to gain confidence, especially when meeting new people.
Thanks again for your interpretations. They are very naturally expressed and helpful!
Warmly, Kim
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Post by yangchen1 on Jul 23, 2004 5:18:15 GMT
I would like to mention here that there are differing systems of working out house placements... and that can have a bearing. It may stir up contraversy however in the long run is worthy of thought. If we believe Saturn is in a particular house we may psych ourselves into beliefs that are not helpful. Fear is one of those. Keep an open mind is what I learned. Nats
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Post by svenskasfinx on Oct 12, 2004 21:20:54 GMT
Hello all, I too feel a bit uneasy when people give a blanket statment about a planet such as Saturn. For me, Saturn has been for the most part a bringer of good tidings, as my Jupiter return has been mostly a mixed bag. I get the impression that the reason I have become so keen on astrology since the age of 8 is that I wanted to understand things clearly. My mother is a fan of the blanket astrology statements and keeps insisting that Saturn is a malific planet with nothing "good to offer" LOL! But from her point of view it can make an odd kind of sense. Her ascendant is Capricorn after all! And perhaps Saturn's discomforts are something physically felt... aside from things like responsiblities, and structure, and that sort of thing, Saturn's juristiction over discipline and the bone structure and teeth should be noted..and one of the worst physical pains people can feel is the breaking of a bone or tooth. ( so I understand for a Capricorn rising Saturn can just represent all those bodily pains from aging and growing even when one is young, and that awkward feeling of being out of step with the world and slow) To this very day, my mother insists that Saturn is that killer along with Mars and Pluto..and she is worried every time Saturn or Pluto makes a long transit, is it going to cause an accident...as if a transit itself could do such a thing. I guess I am getting quite comfortable with my Saturn, but then again I should, conjunct with Vesta seems to mean that I wouldn't have noticed any real problems dealing with it... as I had always been devoted and disciplined...( well sort of ) Other blanket statements I can't stand are, things relating to the good fortune of Jupiter, and that Mars is a bad planet also. Sun conjunct Mars means deadly accidents or even heart attacks in the natal chart ect... But thats just some of it. I noticed more than often a very lightly aspected Mars seems to be an accident prone... lightly or under experessed.. there is something a bit off about the expression of that kind of energy, so I see that as being more dangerous than someone saying a heavy aspected Mars is. (Maybe not running away from danger is a problem but still, not even percieving that you are angry could be harder, in theory anyway.) Take care all, svenskasfinxen
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Post by Kim Falconer on Oct 13, 2004 0:09:18 GMT
One of the most important things a mystic woman taught me when I was 17 was that the planets represent “Energy, just as it is. There is no good or bad in astrology. Those are simply human judgement calls, and inadequate ones at that.”<br> This is what I love so much about astrology. It teaches us to see energy without labels, positive or negative…if we let it!
That Mars/Sun observation is interesting. Mars does “heat up” whatever it touches and just like fire, it is great in the hearth or on the stove, dangerous and scary when it rages out of control. These concepts can be interpreted as “accident pron” because people with them can be in a big hurry. They may have a lot of energy spilling all over the place (and maybe are quite happy with that). There is also something about Mars (sometimes) that forgoes looing before it does the leaping. Oh how Mars loves to leap!!!
Thanks for your input.
For the most part, blanket statements (about anything) tend to make the picture smaller…not bigger. The tend to limit things and I am always hoping to do just the opposite!
Warmly, Kim
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Post by svenskasfinx on Oct 14, 2004 20:48:39 GMT
One of the most important things a mystic woman taught me when I was 17 was that the planets represent “Energy, just as it is. There is no good or bad in astrology. Those are simply human judgement calls, and inadequate ones at that.”<br> Hej Kim! I too follow along the path that an aspected planet or asteroid is an integration of that particular energy, regaurdless of it being square or conjunct, or sextile, trine, quintile, quincux, what have you... it is integrated in some way, even if it isn't known for being harmonious. I noticed that people with planets that are not aspected, those planets express themselves in the most undermining of ways.. my mother may have just one aspect to her mars in taurus, and that was a trine to her ascendant, but aside from that nothing else... With that she is the most accident prone person I know, although I know that a moon/jupiter quincux is known for making people rather oddly out of step, enough to trip over their own feet.. on the other hand, mars makes the muscles active.. But if mars is unrelated to the rest of the chart, where does this energy get experessed? It seems that many people including myself pick up on my mother's lack of awareness to her own anger, however I do recall she was not only a runner in elementry school, but a high jumper then and later a dancer, but she has had so many accidents, it has limited her physicality, and sometimes I feel she has a lack of awareness of her own physical pain... for example wearing bad shoes when she was younger, and too tight clothes... Anyone else have any mars observations? take care, svenskasfinx
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