Dionysus (#3671)

[Amoroso]

Dear All,

The following quotes are from the book "The Love Spell" by Phyllis Curott, and I'll use them to start this thread:

"Life's a labyrinth, full of twists and turns. You can't see the pattern when you're in the middle of it. Can't see where you've been, where you're going, but if you'll let go of the need for a map, and just trust, you'll find your way to the center..."
"Yes, but isn't there a monster waiting at the center?"
"The Minotaur...He's only a monster to those who deny him."
"Deny what?"
"The Minotaur is Dionysus, the Greek God of ecstasy. If you deny yourself joy, eroticism, love, all his delicious, intoxiating gifts that make life worth living, he'll drive you mad. But if you embrace him...you get a life filled with pleasure and grace. The greatest tragedy of this culture is that we've lost our ability to honor what he offers."
"All our substitutes for real joy --all our addictions to alcohol and drugs (note--mine were sugar, caffeine, anger and pain--obviously related) the materialsim, the bed-hopping for that initital rush of conquest or romantic love--none of that fills the hole."

In this book, the author spells out the story of Dionysus and relates his myth to the Minotaur, Osiris and, Jesus.

What a great way to synthesize my experience of C (perhaps the most intense, erotic experience of my life that shows no signs of waning at the moment) my marraige, children and the rest of my life.

So, get this. Asteroid Dionysus sits natally at 24 Gemini in the 8th house, which is the exact midpoint of my Sun and Sappho, also in 8th house Gemini. Sappho herself is the midpoint between my Sun and Venus.

Prometheus, perhaps the ability to do the right thing, but pay a price for it--as we've discussed in several other threads--sits at 9 Gemini and is the midpoint between my Vertex and Lust, also in 8th house Gemini. (It's a crowded house....)

In synastry with C., my Dionysus is conjunct his Moon. His Dionysus is conjunct my Prometheus AND my vertex and is the midpoint to both. This opposes his Vertex, Venus, Sappho and Prometheus, which are all conjunct my Saturn.

SOMEHOW this is all related to my experience of him as ineffable, and the relationship between spirituality, ecstasy and the physical. They are all one. I have always known this intellectually, but my experience of C has made it a physcial reality. It is not about him and me, but experiencing him has made it about every other part of my life.

Well, yes. Seeing hijm sets it all off in glorious technicolor!

I haven't even gotten into aspects, and I am not sure I have made any sense. I am still tryng to draw these ideas together. I can see how these asteroids might not be important to everyone, but I do think they shed light for me on a situation in my life that could become ugly if the wrong side were played out. However, it is important to keep playing! As I started out with, to deny the god would lead to madness.

Oh my. I need a beer. (Bacchus.)

Blessings,
Amoroso

PS It is interesting that I had a beer last night after attending a famous orhestra concert. I have a cousin who plays in the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra and we went out for a beer afterwards. I never drink beer!!!!

[Kim Falconer]

This is a great insight into Dionysus! Thank you.

My natal Dionysus is exactly opposite Chiron, at the apex of a Chiron inconjunct Pluto sextile Venus/Jupiter YOD. I think this god has been quite very important to me--I am often telling his story in my readings to share a feeling of the divergent expression of the mystical vs. the pragmatic. I'm always trying to get a grip on that.

I'm going to give this some more thought.

Thank you for this!
Kim

[Amoroso]

Dear Kim,

I think Dionysus at the apex of that very powerful Yod (and, by the way, your Pluto/Juno conjunction reminded me of my Juno/BML/Chariklo!) says something about the MOTIVATION behind your storytelling. Your Leo Pluto/Juno, joined by Cancerian 12th house Dionysus to your Gemini Jupiter/Venus simply screams "storytelling as culture-doctor, storytelling to help individuals develop a personal mythology out of the collective mythology to heal and nurture. The whole Leo/Jupiter thing joined to Chiron by way of Dionysus says to me that you dare, in spite of, or maybe beacuse of, your own painful journies, to invoke the god/goddess through powerful, communications that lead to rebirth, rejuvination, rejoining.

I do believe a fit of Dionysian ecstasy came upon me as I was writing that!

I think this asteroid must manifest in different ways at different ages. Certainly most women I know my age seem to be going through similar awakenings. And we all are looking younger and seem to have a special look about the eye. No wonder the culture is afraid of us! Our culture worships the young who have the outer look of Eros, but may have yet to discover him inside!

Maybe C is the outer manifestation of what has awakened in me. You think?

Blessings,
Amoroso

[Amoroso]

One more thing to my previous post--it is interesting that I brought up women in the context of Dionysus. Women are an important part of his myth--women-dancing-wildly through-the-forests-at-midnight kind of thing, which greatly disturbed Pentheus, the King of Thebes, who didn't realize Dinoysus was his own cousin. There are similarities in the Jesus story, too. He actually treated women as equals (unlike much of the organized church, sad to say,) and it was women who were present to witness his death and who first discoverd and witnessed this resurrection.

I wonder what the relationship is between Eros and Dionysus? I know that Eros is considered one of the oldest gods, right there from the beginning, and in Christian tradition, Jesus as Chirst was there at "the beginning" with God.

This might appear saccreligious, but Eros there at the beginiing gives "the big bang" theory of creation a whole new meaning.....

Blessings,
Amoroso

[Kim Falconer]

Thank you for that, Amoroso. It seems inspired, a real "message". I got shivers down my spine reading it!

(And yes, Juno/Pluto/Palas/Ascendant all conjunct (BTW also square Eros/IC, opposite Pandora/Dsc) is reminiscent to Juno/BML/Chariklo!

I was thinking about Eros and Dionysus and wanted to look at my Dad's and my ex-husband's placements...I think the two were strongly mingled in both those relationships--and they had quite a similar dynamic.

Interestingly, my Dad's Dionysus is conjunct my Jupiter/Venus and my ex husband's was conjunct my Pluto/Juno. (inconjunct and square my Eros). I was certainly torn to shreds and then resurrected, repeatedly, by both those relationships.

(I just realized I say "is" with my dad, who is dead and "was" with my ex, who is very much alive! Interesting Kim!)

Probably the strongest undercurrent in these relationships was a feeling of divine rapture along with the "mania" and the sheds and resurrections!

I've been thinking the encounters of Eros and Dionysus. Their is a particularly beautiful painting of Ariadne reaching out her arm to a fading ship on the horizon when Theseus abandoned her to what he thought was a barren island.

But guess who weeps at her feet?

Eros!

And Eros didn't leave her in despair. Dionysus happened to be on that island, and he fell in love with her at first sight! (clearly Eros's darts had a play here). In some versions, Dionysus and Ariadne went to Lemnos where they had several children. (a creative union)

In the quote from "Love Spell" I thought immediately of Ariadne and her golden thread that can guide us through the twists and turns.

"Life's a labyrinth, full of twists and turns. You can't see the pattern when you're in the middle of it. Can't see where you've been, where you're going, but if you'll let go of the need for a map, and just trust, you'll find your way to the center..."

I like to think that Ariadne, after all her trials, found the ecstasy of love with Dionysus. Certainly these two asteroids are worthy of exploring in synastry.

Kim

PS
Ariadne is transiting at 9 Pisces right now, Dionysus at 13 Gemini. They form the exact square at 16 degrees on the 15ths of April. You get your return in May!

From Swiss Ephemeris

Date | ||||||||| Ariadne | Dionysus

02 Apr 2005 | 9 pi 7 | 13 ge 22 |
07 Apr 2005 | 12 pi 0 | 14 ge 35 |
12 Apr 2005 | 14 pi 51 | 15 ge 51 |
17 Apr 2005 | 17 pi 40 | 17 ge 9 |
22 Apr 2005 | 20 pi 27 | 18 ge 29 |
27 Apr 2005 | 23 pi 12 | 19 ge 51 |
02 May 2005 | 25 pi 54 | 21 ge 14 |
07 May 2005 | 28 pi 34 | 22 ge 39 |
12 May 2005 | 1 ar 12 | 24 ge 5 |
17 May 2005 | 3 ar 46 | 25 ge 33 |

[svenskasfinx]

Amoroso! Kim! What syncronicity!

This combination plays a major part in the synastry senario going on with me as well.

I would have to wonder what does it mean if Dionysus 3671 is on someone's natal ASC..(thus making a conjunction to another's ASC-- well, his Medusa 149 is conjunct his ASC but now we add an exact conjunction from the 12th house from Dionysus in Gemini; remember Pan was also there in the 1st at only a few minutes apart.)

Ok, then there is my own chart, My Dionysus in Taurus in the 11th conjunct exactly his Juno (in his 12th) (with a conjunction to Ceres in action there too)

Then we come to the chart of someone else... and his Ariadne 43. Mine happens to fall in his first house along with his own Ariadne, the two in conjunction but his retrograde..(both in Virgo at respectively 27 degrees and 29 (R) degrees)- this man's Dionysus falls into conjunction with my MC with less than one degree, and is also conjunct an asteroid I find important to my creative expression Kafka..

But then there is the synastry between him and my husband! My husband's Dionysus falls into HIS MC exact conjunction.

I did research earlier on the story of Ariadne.. and how she helped her lover behind her father's back to defeat the Minotor, but then he leaves her behind and rejected, she was inconsolable, but divine intervention took her to an island where she was promised an imortal lover... Dionysus.

There were other syncronicities with the story of Dionysus.. I found some interesting astroids a few weeks ago that were connected to asteroid 35 Leukothea (the myth is very interesting there) She was the "wet nurse" to Dionysus.. Hera drove her insane for caring for the infant Dionysus and she dove into the sea with her own son in her arms. It seems out of pity the gods made her and her son imortal.

She is said to protect sailors... and appears to be a mermaid form.
www.theoi.com/Kronos/Leukothea.html

( I wrote a story about a mermaid who attempts to protect a sailor strangely enough... this asteroid Leukothea is at 14°50’24" Cancer in my first house conjunct my Venus/Aphrodite combination but also exactly squared my Bacchus at 14 degrees 50 and squared also my NN/SN at 14 degrees 22. (there is also an asteroid called STORM at that degree in Libra conjunct Bacchus as well))

Now I got on this deviation because there were also others figures who had taken care of other's babies, for example Thetis and 15 Eunomia (which was the pair who raised Hephestis who was cast out for being born lame...) Eunomia was also considered "mother of the graces"...and she shows up alot conjunct the DC of a few of my group of natal charts (two men I know who are broken up with the mother of their children but yet seem to be on speaking terms.)

I found these asteroids by conincidence and a telephone number..odd that!

Just thought I'd add.. mercury retrograde seems to be both hindering and yet digging deeply.

Thanks for sharing your stories as well.

svenskasfinx

[Amoroso]

Hi Svenskasfinx,

There is so much in your post to which I want to respond. Thanks for adding to this discussion. I'll "perculate" and get back to this asap.

Blessings,
Amoroso

[Amoroso]

Dear Sven,

If you post your synergy charts with the people you mentioned, I will take a stab at interpreting Dionysus for you. I really still need the visual map for any chart I don't know well.

It is interesting about your mermaid story and asteroid 35 Leukothea. She sits directly opposite my ASC/Neptune/Vesta. About 5 years ago I had a dream that I was coming out of the sea, carrying an infant and holding a small child by the hand. I was back in my size 12 jeans, wearing a simple white oxford shirt, tucked in, and looked radiant. It was very vivid. For a long time I thought it was about birthing my own kids. But now, that I am back into those jeans after wearing a size 20, I think it has something to do with "rescuing" the child-like wonder and creativity of myself and C. He and I have a huge amount of Leo energy in both the tropical and Draconic charts. I know that aspect had died within me, and by caring for his talent, it brought mine back to life. (That's my Cancerian Venus in 9th house for you!!!!)

Thanks for making this connection between Dionysus and Leukothea!!!

Blessings,
Amoroso

[svenskasfinx]

Amoroso!

that sounds like a wonderful mythical dream...I love to know that people are still dreaming

thankyou for the offer of interpretation.. I have to get back to you on that, because I need to make the information on the charts "less obvious" .

there will be at least three charts then..

BTW the one person who has Dionysus conjunct my MC also has this asteroid in conjuction of Leukothea also, in the 4th degree of Piscies..

Another interesting thing.. as I keep trying to go to sleep is that my son and I have Dionysus in conjunction.. He has it in Taurus in his 10th house with an exact conjunction of a few others:

His combination is: Dionysus/Promethius/Pandora/Euterpe/Sappho (most are less than one degree apart, save for Sappho which is 2)

I get the feeling this is an utterly musical combination!

More to come later, much later..

Svenskasfinx

[Kim Falconer]

The imagery here is stunning! Thank you for sharing so much.

Amoroso, I still prefer (too soft a word--maybe "require/desire") to look at the chart and actually see the symbols. If I don't have a chart in front of me, I picture it in my mind. I find the divinity jumps out and starts talking and "shows" me how they are expressing in the sign, house, aspect etc.

For me, astrology is not just symbolic: It's visual!

Eclipse tomorrow!

Kim

[svenskasfinx]

Ok Everyone!

I don't feel that the synastry between this Dionysus and MC are very spectatcular looking.. but I'd like to show these two charts:



ME In Blue and someone "interesting"



ME in blue and the husband..

just synsastry--

Note that both of their Dionysus, makes contact with major angles..

Nothing else more to add..

I just thought it was intersting..

Thanks ahead of time,

svenskasfinx

[Amoroso]

Svenskasfinx:

I am thinking about your charts and will post soon. I am intrigued that in both sets of charts, Dionysus conjuncts an angle. It's made me think a great deal about how the ASC and MC express differently.

More and more I am getting away from the idea that the MC expresses "profession." While I know that is one legitimate keyword, I am leaning more and more towards Caroline Casey's phrase that the MC is an angle which shows "what you take in and what you put out" in terms of energy. The Saturnian influence would mean whatever you have built, whether that be a home, a business, past, present and future accomplishments, etc. What do you think?

More soon,

Blessings,
Amoroso

[svenskasfinx]

Amoroso said:

Svenskasfinx:

I am thinking about your charts and will post soon. I am intrigued that in both sets of charts, Dionysus conjuncts an angle. It's made me think a great deal about how the ASC and MC express differently.

More and more I am getting away from the idea that the MC expresses "profession." While I know that is one legitimate keyword, I am leaning more and more towards Caroline Casey's phrase that the MC is an angle which shows "what you take in and what you put out" in terms of energy. The Saturnian influence would mean whatever you have built, whether that be a home, a business, past, present and future accomplishments, etc. What do you think?

More soon,

Blessings,
Amoroso

Dear Amoroso,

I get the feeling your thinking about it makes it more of a reason for me to try to understand where it fits.

Buisiness? I never really thought about that- however those ideas about the 10th house are wonderful and started me to thinking about my ideas of the 10th house just in terms of "Reputation" (Honours and dishonours, fame vs. infamy ect) I think in this combination that his conjunctions are like me looking up at him from down below.. (him on the stage and me watching and getting a look back)

The other thing, because I am included within my own reading of the matter is the idea of "completion"-- for example, I notice that I don't really have many "Trines" and I have noticed because of the degree in the sign of Piscies, that my own MC compleats a "Grand Trine".

With 3671 Dionysus and 35 Leukothea in conjunction (not shown here) to My MC it gives a feeling of "completing my talents" or "validating" my water sign expression.

These two are in opposition to Jupiter and my IC- which seems to sugest an "overboard" reaction, this does not sound alien to the experience..

Between my husband's chart and my own, I notice he has his Juno in conjunction to my Dionysus.. and His Dionysus conjunct my ASC. (although the both of us have a "dynamic" combination, there is very little ballancing out as in Grand Trines, Grand Squares and Yod between us we add to what we have rather than create a new situation as in the synastry charts the other person.

Another thing about the synastry of "annonymus chart one" is that MY own planets are at the top of his chart.. showing something very 10th house oriented..

In the composition between this person not my husband there is also a very 10th house emphisis as well with Mercury, Vesta, and Venus as well as the Sun at the top. I don't know how these things play out, but I hope its not destructive .

Something new already came up this weekend, made my husband very stand-offish, because of someone suddenly "chatting" with me out of the blue while we were standing there talking about ordering books. He knows I chat with some people, but he almost looked as he'd been struck by lightening when he saw the name... and was very quiet afterwards.


I also think about the Dionysus playing a roll of spiritual self sacrifice as a Christlike figure as well..and the idea of Dionysus on Johan's ASC from the 12 conjunction with Medusa (in the 12th), and Pan (from the first house) seems as though he is uncomfortable with making that sacrifice.. and yet the dynamic beween us makes me have to do that more and more.

With the Dionysus configured in my son's chart (not shown) I was totally amazed by the fact that we both had it in the same place..(we also have Erato at 11 degrees Libra) only with my son, he has a conjunction of Prometheus/Pandora/Eutrope/Dionysus a combination with his father's Ceres/Juno/Sappho (in a wide conjunction). (his Ceres on my antivertex). This combination all together is combined with a trine to his father's Pluto/Uranus/Pandora/Isis conjunction.

Where Juno plays a part (getting back to me and my husband) in conjunction with Dionysus is difficult, the two in mythology don't get along. Combine the two in synastry, in conjunction these two are forced to work together. Then there is Apollo in my chart, just in conjunction from the 12th to my ASC. (not shown here) From what I gather, Apollo and Dionysus didn't get along too well either.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head, thanks for your thoughts and efforts so far, I'm waiting to see what you come up with.

Take care,

svenskasfinx

[Amoroso]

"Where Juno plays a part...in conjunction with Dionysus is difficult, the two in mythology don't get along..."

Dear S,

I am still percolating...I hope to have someting by the end of the week on the charts you posted, especially since you added some interesting things--I do think it interesting that Juno can mean "what or how much one is willing to give up" in a committed relationship, and that has echoes in a Dionysian sacrifice.

Your son's chart does seem extraordinary!

More soon,
Amoroso

[svenskasfinx]

:)Hej Amoroso,

Take your time, see what you come up with, I can imagine that this is a learning experience for you to begin with because it is so personal.

As far as my son's chart goes, he has these combinations, including an Eros/Cupidio/Pan/Medusa (out of orb to the Dionysus) thing going on all in the 10th house as well..

It makes me wonder about where exactly someone like Curt Cobain had his Dionynus: (anyone who knows it give me a personal message- I think the birth information somewhere out there but I avoid the whole - its far too tragic) (I think there was a story in Dell Horoscope some time ago as well).

But anyway, thanks for your thoughts so far-- and take your time, I don't think this thread is going to disappear .

Thanks again for you time-

svenskasfinx