Who Represents Whom?

[blueorchids]

Kim,

Quick core question. I had an odd dream the night before the final scan and it stayed with me.

If I cast a horary that asks: What are his true feelings for his spouse? (this is about Doc)

Who represents whom?

Is he Ascendant/House 1 and his spouse 7th or he 7th and she 1st? Am I anyone in the horary or no?

[Kim Falconer]

Technically, if Doc is your 7th house ‘other’ that you are asking about, he is the 7th and we turn the chart to put the 7th on the Asc. then the 7th in that chart (the 1st) becomes the spouse. You aren't in the picture really because you are asking about Him (7th becomes the 1st) and his wife (7th from the 7th or 1st)

Does that make sense?

So, looking at the chart as cast, he is the 7th and she is the first…if you turn the chart so the 7th is rising, she then naturally becomes the 7th and he the 1st…

I’m I making it more confusing? Show me the chart and I’ll tell you who’s whom!

Kim

[blueorchids]

So he would be Saturn? (she too is in the medical field) No surprise there, and look in the 12th house--hospitals and secrecy... His Saturn and Mars are in Leo (ruled by her/Sun!) So on point.

That would make her the Sun in 11th? No direct aspect to Saturn but an inconjunct coming. Moon not in aspect with Sun either. Pluto is last planetary transit for the Moon.

Venus and Moon in 11th (hard core into her career? he views her as pivotal to his reputation? She does come from a family of means...). Saturn is square (tight) to jupiter and opposite to Neptune. Those seem to indicate communication rife with criticism and feeling of being closed off and hemmed in. But does he feel that about himself? Sun inconjunct Saturn. Does she feel subdued or held back by him? YET!! The question asks of his feelings for her. Saturn is really up against challenges here and being in the 12th --feelings of self-sacrifice, defensiveness, being imprisoned by circumstance? Furthermore Saturn in Leo--wanting recognition and spotlight yet not getting it? Mars is also in 12!
It seems like alot of repression afoot?

What's the privacy angle? Mercury has just entered 12 also.



I took a pass at asking about us, since I figured I could at least read that with some ease. Jupiter (me) and Mercury (him) not in aspect but the Moon (my co-siginifcator) will conjunct Him (Mercury as its last touch) in the 7th!. Venus is in H 5 also sextile to Mercury I am surprised not to see a heavier health emphasis given what is going on right now but will take it as an omen that the films that came through tonight were clean. But Pluto is pressing down on the Ascendant though so yes he/it is very much weighing on my mind and spirit. Jupiter is also retrograde here and in that water trine with uranus/moon-sun.

I have to go read to the children and put the little one down.

These are very interesting and sort of scream out. I will try to come back and say more about my impressions.

[whiteheather]

I am no expert at horary, but what strikes me immediately is that, in the 7th house which is his 1st, and I suppose in a way the most "truly him" since every other house signifies something specific, he has Ceres there, and you asked about his feelings about his wife. Ceres is an extremely benevolent asteroid, granting forgiveness, understanding, patience, all kinds of good things. This Ceres trines her significator the Sun in his 5th. Furthermore, Neptune is at his first house cusp. I would say, the mailman might know better than he does what he is feeling about whom right now. This Neptune also trines the Moon, his wife's other significator which is in his 4th, which is also called "the end of things." Whether he truly loves her or not, he may certainly think (even if erroneously) that he does.
I don't mean to rain on your parade, you know, but... you are asking what other people see, and this is what jumps out at me.

And as far as the second chart where your two significators do not make contact -- they are about to, but how much does this really count?? From a technical standpoint. I am asking this question not rhetorically, but as a real question directed at everybody, also Kim?? Because I am interested in horary and still learning, and because I have my own horaries that drive me crazy which I don't post, does it really count when you ask a relationship question and the significators do not make contact in the chart, but at some later point they will? After all, they all connect at some point. According to some horary specialists, no contact, no relationship, if there is no translation, no collection of light, and no mutual reception. (I am thinking of Deborah Houlding from skyscript.co.uk) Some astrologers are very strict, some not so. What do people here think about that? (Maybe this deserves a thread of its own somewhere.)

Anyway, turning charts is tricky. You have to keep in mind that the same planet has to be read as being in two different houses. So her Sun is in HER 11th house, but it's HIS 5th, and that's nothing to sneeze at.

You on the other hand would be represented by the 5th (still looking at the first chart), the cusp being in Gemini. Isn't that cute! I just loooove horary! And fittingly Mercury is in his 6th. Way cool!!! And this Mercury is making a sextile to Venus in his 5th, conj. Eros. Hmmm.

[blueorchids]

Thanks a bunch Whiteheather. That is very helpful. I think I do see what you are saying about her as the Sun in his 5th. That makes sense, and no, you are absolutely correct--- nothing whatsoever to sneeze at. I have to rethink my question and look at the chart with fresh eyes since I asked what his true feelings are about his spouse.

I am not sure that's how I would handle Ceres because to be honest. I let the asteroids punctuate a chart and it seems iffy. If I had left the asteroids out then his house would be empty and ruled by Saturn----7th house ruled by Saturn?..... I don't do asteroids well but it is probably important that it's the only thing in his house, --7. I am more struck by the relationship between Saturn and the Sun and the houses they are inhabiting. Isn't he Saturn here in the 12th? And what about JUNO which seems more critical given its placement also in 12th. I do see Neptune on the cusp but was drawn first to its placement in 6th and the opposition it makes to him--both as Saturn and Mars. It is also retrograde so moving off the 7th and back towards the 6th

I am not sure about the notion that they all connect sooner or later. I thought in all horaries one was to consider how the moon specifically travels and its last aspect (shit I hope I haven't screwed that up as well!! In clarity and fairness, I note that she as Venus also is moving to a sextile to Saturn and Mars and that is altogether pleasant. The Moon opposing Pluto as the last aspect in the chart however seems to echo the stress I get off of the loaded house 12. So maybe its a combo, two for one Whiteheather Blueorchids Red Light Special for Doc---It's all intensely spiritual. He loves her like dutifully Saturnic mad, reveres the friendly friendship and social status but feels under rumbling miserable earthquakian duress. Hello Pluto!! (I am saying all of this so Kim can come and slap the silliness out of me..... ;D ;D ;D

Now. Yes you are dead on. ... Jupiter and Mercury do not!! aspect in the second chart. Yet, Venus and mercury are in a fat healthy sextile right now. And the Sun and Moon are in close applying trine to Jupiter (me) and the last aspects for the Moon (travelling rapidly)will actually be a conjunction to Mercury before it changes signs. I would think that since the Sun and Mercury are both in 7th-this would reiterate him as the SUN and as his co-significator.

I think your comment about me in 5 in the first chart is telling because venus is in also the 5th in the second. Am I just a phantasmical play thing--summer boy toy? Oh joy SIGH..

PS--- You know what WH???. How did we miss this? I am actually being blinded with the SUN next to me in my chart. I am moving out of the beams but still 4 degrees!! I am the weak scared Jupiter and the dizzy infatuated Moon...... Oh well. At least it's all happening in the exciting, thrilling 7th house and the Moon and Sun are in Cancer!...... (always the eternal optimist....)

[whiteheather]

OK here is another thing Deborah Houlding states, and in the past I have found this one to be true: asking about a relationship, if your significator is in the 7th, you are the more eager of the two, if HIS is in your first, then he is the more interested one.

On the other hand, I think you have a point - it is the Moon that we have to look toward for that last aspect before leaving the sign, and in this case it is Mercury, his sig. So it might mean there will be a closeness, but not necessarily they way you want. Not only is it YOU in the seventh approaching HIS sig, but it is Mercury, not exactly a fuzzy emotional planet. I would more optimistic about it if you were approaching Mars or Pluto. Moon of course is very strong in Cancer, but Mercury isn't. And what about parallels? You should definitely look those up in astro.com by clicking on "additional tables" I think.

As far as the "loaded house 12" -- that's actually HIS 6th house, the house of work and service, and that makes perfect sense. Also, it's not exactly loaded. There are only 2 planets in there, and Mars is technically on the Asc. and already in the first.

I hope someone knowlegeable comes along and sheds light on all this. I wish I knew more myself.

WH

[blueorchids]

Okay WH. I am now way too confused about him and the two houses so I will do some reading and am appreciative of your imput.

That Mars is only at 12 Leo, nine off the 21 degree ascendant. What am I missing here? How is Mars in the 1st House if it's at 12 degrees? Also aren't Mercury, Mars, and Saturn all inhabiting the 12th house as well as POF and Juno? That seems crowded when you consider nothing is in the 7th . I know Mercury is in Cancer but it is also in the 12th.

To be honest for now.....Mercury conjuncting me in the end (and the end is however long the expiration date goes on this horary.. ;D is lovely. It's great for closeness especially for me since I am only confident in my ability to write dreamy love letters and not leave an entire family behind...but then again I am a Gemini Sun/Mercury! Also CANCER MERCURY is so deliciously emotional, for better or worse, hardly cold.

The fact that I as the Moon am moving off the hot brilliant sun and running to the refuge of a 7th house Cancer Mercury makes me laugh as that is a comfortable place for me. Since I asked his feelings about me, I think --well he could have been Virgo in Mercury in the 11th and that would spell something else entirely--speaking of not being fuzzy...

The Sun (he) is actually moving toward Jupiter. Jupiter is the slow moving one there. But yes you are totally right on Houlding. I have read that about showing up in the 7th, and being the more keen. That would not be surprising! .. and I don't want to behave stupidly and not contemplate what you are pointing out.

Thanks again,

Blue

[blueorchids]

You know WH and others. I apologize. I should have dropped the asteroids anyway as we are often told by Kim to do. All the asteroids do is push the house out and make it hard to read. I have redone them--see below.





and me.... it drops that fat POF in house 1...

[whiteheather]

You are right, Mercury in Virgo in the 11th would be a real problem, LOL! The way you put it, maybe Mercury in Cancer isn't so bad, depending, as you say, what one wants.

As far as Mars, you are right, it says 12th degree. So it is firmly in the 12th, whatever that means. But again, it's his 6th., your 12th.

I don't really understand the significance of the Sun moving toward Jupiter. The Sun is nobody's significator in that chart, unless you mean in a universal sense. But wouldn't that in this case rather be Mars? Which is also in aspect with Jupiter, just more challenging.

I just see that Mercury (and Jupiter too) actually each rule 2 houses in this chart, which is also interesting. This makes Capricorn/Cancer intercepted signs, and that means something, I forget what.

Also, Scorpio rules his 5th house, and the second ruler of it is Pluto on the cusp of his 7th. Now here is something to think about. It opposes the Sun in his 1st.

This is kind of addictive. The more I look, the more I see. Unfortunately this doesn't necessarily translate into more insights on my part. I notice these things, but I don't know what they mean, and I don't have the time to look them up.

I still think you should look at parallels.

Oh, and when you sign off "Blue" it makes me think you are blue now. I hope not!!

[blueorchids]

Thanks WH

The Sun according to Lilly traditionally represents the man and the moon the woman. I made that his co-significator since he is also conjunct the moon and in the 7th house rather than going for Mars here and he is approaching Jupiter.

At any rate while the Moon is Dominant in Cancer here with it in the 7th and Mercury is in the 7th he may well feel very little for me. The good news is always that I take forever to show my feelings and rarely act them out with anyone so I won't be entirely and utterly squashed if he does feel little.

No Blue means Blueorchids ..... Not to worry. This Sag/Gem/Aries has to keep zooming...It's kept me healthy and alive so far He wrote me a funny goofy email today so maybe he is just mixed up in his little medical mystery of a head...

[blueorchids]

We are absolutely flooded here and got a huge dose last night. Between that, waiting for my test results and my period which is always a mess after those poisonous body scans, I am just getting to the declinations. I appreciate that tip WH as I don't usually use those in horaries.

But yes! In their chart DECLINATIONS FOR Mars/Saturn is tightly matching Venus. The main significators--Sun and Saturn are not near each other.

This is also true in my/our chart. The main significators do not near each other.

In our chart for declination-- his main significator Mercury and Venus are one orb 8 seconds. Mars and Venus are one orb, one second. Interestingly, Jupiter is near exact to Juno. Mercury is near exact to Psyche & Pallas.

In Both Charts the Moon nears Nothing but Eros! Both are very close to Eros. How exquisitely hormonal. Actually here's one unbelievably funny factoid--In both Charts the MOON, Eros, & Lust are way way out of bounds 27-29 .....OMG... ROFL...

When I look now at the charts . Hmm I would say ours is classic/clearly nascent , infatuation (me), emotional (me/cancer moon 7th), flirting (him), chatty (us) with him likely basking in it and enjoying it, soaking it up--- and perhaps even looking forward to more stilted (LOL) dreamy conversations and correspondences --Mercury Moon conjunct.

Whatever we say, we do have to say that they are radically different in tone, texture....For one thing despite my obvious effusiveness revealed, Jupiter --such a showoff- is rising (same in my natal/ his rising BTW is actually Cancer/the Moon) and the Moon rules 7 + 8/Venus 5 & 6. In our chart Saturn here takes a back seat depite its challenges, it is neither the Ascendant nor the 7th house ruler). But then again Saturn is what it is solid, responsible, cementing!

There's is a real life 16 year marriage here and definitely revealed as such. I feel intensity. To me that horary speaks of long term issues and a long term relationship, much of it around duty and admiration (Leo rules his planets/Venus and Moon are in 10th traditionally ruled by Saturn?) and yes I do get repression and service. I will let Kim and others dig through that thicket especially the Pluto Moon's last aspect and Saturn's squares and oppositions..

And I have to be frank, that 7th house Cancer Moon is a strong thing but one ricocheting and awash in emotion. The 7th and 5th house contacts and the Jupiter /Uranus/MnSUN water trine do give this chart a more emotional pushing the boundaries patina--and there is love/play stuff going on. 5th house Venus also moves to sextile 8th house saturn/mars.

Perhaps he thinks "That Blue sure is crazy for me--she makes me feel like a strutting Peacock and the Chatty Cathy I rarely pull off elsewhere (Mercury is headed to a tight trine with the NN and the Moon does have a pretty easy sail from here til it meets up with him). "

....

of course if you really want to be devilish, impish and a veritable rubic's cube pimp... look what happens when you switch Pluto and Jupiter out---- I as Jupiter now in house 12 get trines (separating from mars/saturn). Pluto goes to the 11th house and trines out to moon/Sun. Moony and Mercury still end the journey.

I doubt we would want to do that to their chart...That would take that last aspect of the moon opposite pluto away but basically she would then be Void Of Course with nothing left planetar-ily speaking except that tight now separating Neptune trine--Moon moving rapidly forward Neptune falling back after looking to slip into 7th house. Spooky..... What is provocative also in addition to the VOC is that It looks like that Jupiter and Pluto would then actually meet up in house 4. Saturn/Mars would get relieved of its stressful aspects to Jupiter, she as the Sun gets a late trine to Pluto-- but the Moon is left VOC... and well we wouldn't want that.

;D
Ignore my musing. These meds make my brain smooshy and cause me to enjoy my own nonsense far too much. ;D ;D ;D

[Kim Falconer]

Blueorchids, to answer your PM-- the simple answer about rulership is Doc is the 7th (which we bring to be house 1) That means Saturn, Uranus and the Moon co-rule him, and Leo (Sun) rules his wife. Planet in his 7th (the first as we look at it here) tell us something about the marriage. Aspects between both rulers tells us something also about how they relate.

As in many relationships, there is a complexity here. Saturn in the 7th traditionally suggests ‘someone is holding the leash’ (Ivy Goldstein Jacobson) and that there is ‘the devil to pay in the marriage’. Mar traditional denotes a feisty relationship, with debates arguments or maybe simply a lot of shared work. Mercury is restless in the 7th unless there is a great deal of communication and change. Of course, there are much deeper ways to interpret these planets.

We have no aspect between the rulers…so the horary isn’t giving any clues there.

In the second chart, I would take Mercury for him and Jupiter for you. If we give him the co-ruler Moon (because there are no aspects from Me to Ju) we see the applying trine. I think that says it all!

I hope this helps.

Warmly,
Kim

[blueorchids]

Thanks a bunch Kim! I know there was a lot of speculation to wade through--plus my going off on tangents. Oh I think I see!! Since I asked what he feels--he techincally becomes Moon co-significator in both charts!



I am happy to see that as a trine between us because we have been getting along nicely despite our odd trials and tribulations. It only makes sense. It also puts the moon in motion toward Jupiter and Jupiter in Retro moving back to the Moon.

Cool.