What Does He Really Want?

[blueorchids]

I asked:

"Dear God, What Does He Really Want of Me??"



Preceded by a cup of black coffee, yet another one of his short flirty dreamy email and serious contemplation on my part....Then exasperated hands go up and the question came to me....

First things first, he is Saturn, note that while he has aspects, he is completely alone in house 12 and with no planets in neighborhood houses either. As a physician with ties to hospitals this placement seems appropriate. Saturn is also about responsibility and work ethics. In the 12th house, however, he is hiding, perhaps feeling fear, loneliness, and angst? 12th is also hidden motives, confinement, and things clandestine. Whatsmore, he is also retrograde which signifies indecision, wavering, sense of feeling weak!. He is in a house ruled by Leo or the SUN (me). So I care for him (surprise..)

I am the Sun in House 8. What is striking is that I am at the Aries Point--- Aries ZERO! What is that?!. Am I shining all over the place or what....Geez Louise. Here I see the Sun related to power and sexual/emotional self expression (that ridiculous unbridled enthusiasm endemic of my natal Aries moon and mars) not necessarily anything financial related. Notice also, that Eros abuts me (always can't escape its grasp..)!! I couldn't get an asteroid to fall in his 12th house if I tried but there they are perhaps betraying my longings (and his Mars co-significator's dalliance with PAN of all asteroids!). LOL.

Saturn is moving back from 4 as the Sun moves forward from zero. They will trine though clearly the SUN is the faster of the moving planets.

The Moon is in House 4 (my natal placement btw) where she always seems to be and belongs, (I suppose playing the good steward of hearth of home..). She is separating in trine from Saturn. The Moon, Saturn and the Sun (the NORTH NODE too!) actually form a Grand Fire Trine here.

As Mars however, the story shifts a bit. For one thing Mars and Venus are applying a trine. I note that PAN and PSYCHE are closely conjunct Mars. Mars is heading to House 11, house of hopes, wishes and friendship. That appears to be where the trine will be perfected as Venus moves to conjunct the Descendant and Neptune. Venus now sits in House 6 which makes amazingly good sense since I am indeed a patient. Venus is in a house ruled by SATURN. Venus is moving into Neptune. Yes--that's the feeling..lovely, dreamy and more than a little bit confused. SATURN opposes thay Neptune/Venus duo but in a separating oppostion.

Interesting that my placements surround duty and I feel duty bound --both in house 4 (home) and 6 (as patient). And this is even more uncanny. Say I choose to put him as ruler of house 6 (doc) he would still be SATURN as Saturn rules the 6th here!

The question however was asked after serious brooding (last contact for Moon was me with him ---Saturn). And interestingly, it was not What will he do? (not much Saturn fixed in retro would do, right?) but It was the classic Freudian--- Dear God What does HE want of me?

The Moon's last aspect will be a CONJUNCTION to PLUTO??? What could this possibly mean in regards to my question about HIS DESIRES?

With the serious, retreating SATURN, and a more assertive Mars touching Venus soon, but a SUN in sex suggested, intense deep transformative House 8th....
...well at least the MOON is not Void, then we would know that he wants absolutely postiviely nothing to change.

So what does he really want of me, a mind blowing moment and then time to sit frozen and contemplate his fears and responsibilities (ahh don't forget our composite has a 12th House North Node)-- I jest a bit but not really. Clearly not a traditional relationship. With the moon ending in a conjunction with Pluto and technically Saturn having just the north Node to aspect after the SUN moves on ....

[Kim Falconer]

Blueorchids,

Your work here is excellent.

I would say IF the moon had been VOC, he 'wants nothing'...remember, this is not a DO question but a desire question. What does he want? VOC Moon would have said, "nothing" or You've got nothing to worry about from him....

But the Moon is not VOC and he does want something.

How 'flirty' are those emails?

His ruler in the 12 Rx in a fixed sign in the degree of the node suggests he won't do ANYTHING about what he wants. Not now.

We might say "There is a skeleton in the closet' with Saturn's placement...

He is definitely in seclusion and secretive about what he wants. I wonder if he even knows himself?

You represent something to him that has great meaning...

I think of Hades, when Venus saw him wandering around in the light of day and thought it wrong that he had never experienced erotic love...so she got Eros to fire of an arrow which hit home! Of course, we know what follows...Persephony's abduction and so on.

I think there is a theme here in 'what he wants' and what that final Moon/Pluto aspect is saying.

I don't think there will be any physical action. He's too prescribed (forgive pun). But there is a great deal of physic action that seems to 'leak out' at times, through emails and energy exchange when you see him.

Does this make sense?

Here is a rave on Hades and Eros...I think it might fit with the Moon/Pluto (square Eros) in the Horary as a final aspect. (you probably have this section from one of your Eros reports but it’s good to consider again in light of this horary)

Eros in Aspect to Pluto

"But if any far-off state there be
Dearer to life than mortality
The hand of the Dark hath hold thereof,
And mist is under the mist above;
So we are sick for life, and cling
On earth to this nameless and shining thing,
For other life is a fountain sealed,
And the deeps below are unrevealed,
And we drift on legends forever. “
--Euripedes

Pluto, or Hades is the god of death. He ruled the underworld allotted him after the abscission of his father Cronus. At first he reigned alone then later with his queen, Persephone. A cloistered deity, Pluto rarely encountered others unless they went down to meet him. When his need was desperate though, he erupted from the depths of the underworld to seek the fulfillment of his desires.

In astrological terms, he also rules death and its inevitable retinue: mourning, transformation, change and letting go. This planet is associated with the immense pain and suffering that correspond to great loss. It can relate to the breaking down of a façade or strongly held identity, the physical loss of someone dear, or the loss of a familiar way of life. Whatever the let go is, there may be a concurrent amount of vehemence attached to it. Pluto in this capacity is associated with immense rage and violence.

The anger goes deeper than not getting our needs met. Perhaps it is the anger and rage associated with the impotence we can feel against the greater necessity of life. Pluto, like Eros, is associated with fate and in this capacity neither mere mortals nor the mightiest gods have any authority. Where Eros brings about fate through a deeply erotic union or creativity, Pluto does so through the loss of that which has profound meaning to the individual.

Pluto is particularly difficult to work with unless one has some trust in fate; but how can one trust it, unless one has spent time in despair, darkness, rage and powerlessness, and has found out what supports life when the ego can no longer make its accustom choices.
It becomes evident right away that the combination of Pluto and Eros has potential to invoke great change, and that the change wont be light, like an afternoon breeze, but more like the force of a hurricane.

The mythological Pluto had many other names including Hades, Aedoneus, Orcus, and Dis. Hades is referred to as "He Who Receives So Many," in Greek Polydectes, and is associated with the word “invisible”. Pluto itself is referred to as “riches” and according to Plato corresponded with the nature of the god.

As for Pluto, he was so named as the giver of wealth (plou=tos)…And Hades--I fancy most people think that this is a name of the Invisible (a)eidh/s), so they are afraid and call him Pluto… we must believe that this is the reason why no one has been willing to come away from that other world, not even the Sirens, but they and all others have been overcome by his enchantments, [403e] so beautiful, as it appears, are the words which Hades has the power to speak; and from this point of view this god is a perfect sophist and a great benefactor of those in his realm, he who also bestows such great blessings upon us who are on earth; such abundance surrounds him there below, and for this reason he is called Pluto.”

Plato referred to Pluto as a philosopher, as one disassociated from the realm of the body and therefore able to achieve a greater purity of thought, or at least one not encumbered with lustful desires. He infers that Pluto can hold his many subjects to him as his father Cronus could not and in this he was the far greater god. In what way Plato finds the lord of the underworld free from the physical body is not clear for when it came to love, Pluto succumbed to the dart of Eros as any mortal or as any god must do.

Eros and Death

Pluto had not intended to fall in love. He came up out of his realm of shades to check on the structural integrity of his boundaries after the monster Typhoeus was bound. It seems the giant was shaking the earth against his restrains and Pluto was worried he might tear some gaps in the borders between worlds and frighten his trembling subjects. After he saw the ground secure, he had a little look around.

It was at that point that Aphrodite spotted him and quickly summoned Eros to her side. She had been concerned for some time that Pluto was untouched by love and equally concerned that Persephone, also referred to as Proserpine, would choose celibacy over love.

“[she] said, 'O Cupid! thou who art my son--
my arms, my hand, my strength; take up those arms,
by which thou art victorious over all,
and aim thy keenest arrow at the heart
of that divinity whom fortune gave the last award…
Do thou this goddess Proserpine, unite
in marriage to her uncle”. Venus spoke;--
Cupid then loosed his quiver, and of all
its many arrows, by his mother's aid,
selected one; the keenest of them all;
the least uncertain, surest from the string:
and having fixed his knee against the bow,
bent back the flexile horn.--The flying shaft
struck Pluto in the breast.” --Ovid

It was in this way that Pluto fell in love with the virgin daughter of Demeter. With his new found passion for Persephone beyond restraint, he sought the aid of her father Zeus. His permission obtained, Pluto carefully placed an irresistibly beautiful Narcissus in the midst of a meadow for her to pick. When she did so, he erupted out of the underworld and violently abducted the maiden. He dashed back into the underworld in his raging chariot, Persephone’s screams trailing away on the wind.

They say her cries were heard in the depths of the deepest sea. In the underworld she is raped by Pluto and later she eats six seeds from the Pomegranate. Receiving food in the underworld is the same as receiving a lifetime pass. The ingestion of those seeds sealed her fate as Queen of the Dead.

Her mother Demeter, on the other hand, was not willing to allow that fate to go uncontested. She heard those screams and wasted no time in finding her child. When Demeter realized Persephone had taken nourishment from Pluto she went into a prolonged depression causing all the world to be covered in a frosty winter. Soon people began to starve as the world itself was covered in a death like sleep. Finally, Zeus intervened by allowing Persephone to spend part of the year in the underworld with her husband Pluto and part of it with her mother Demeter. In this way the seasons are defined for when Persephone is with her husband, Demeter morns and the world retreats into winter.

When Eros and Pluto are linked by aspect, the combination may be anything but gentle. It seems the intensity of passion and longing may be redoubled as is the improbability of the match itself. Eros/Pluto contacts of any sort can be associated with impossible relationships where one partner is married to someone else, or living on the other side of the world, or in a situation that otherwise forbids the union. The taboo element of relating moves to new heights with Eros and Pluto linked.

Pluto can also be a symbol for a link to the depths of the unconscious and when in aspect to Eros it can indicate a union or passionate creative endeavor that awakens deep seated psychological complexes or issues. We must be prepared to grapple with the material awakened by this contact as much of it can be associated with anger, rage, frustration, power struggles and vehement covert manipulation.

Erotic relationships can take on the look of a life and death struggle where both parties feel an unerring fate at work. Obsessions beyond the usual sense of the word erupt and the results can be as violent and frightening as Persephone’s abduction into the underworld. In the midst of erotic joy and wonder, the potent needs of Pluto can overwhelm the participants with unexpected rage, lust, lose and the death of life as they previously knew it.

The aspect between Eros and Pluto may also indicate a bond so extreme that no limitation can keep those afflicted apart. If that is the case, one must be willing to examine, again and again, the depths of their own soul. If they do not, the union will relentlessly draw into their lives event after event that will do it for them. The former, although requiring great courage, is usually less tormenting than the latter.

Eros/Pluto aspects offer the opportunity to experience the depths of the unconscious through the beloved other. This means releasing the demons along with the angels, the raw and raging complexes along with the divinely inspired gifts. As long as the price is willingly paid, one erotic union of this kind can be more worthwhile than a whole lifetime of innocence.

Comments anyone? (long post I realize!! )

[blueorchids]

Well all I can Kim is just knowing that you think it was excellent work sort of puts me in a delicious weekend mood! If it weren't for all my reading over here and these incredibly generous smart terrific members, I would not have had a clue of where to begin. It feels good to be learning here, making some headway, and for this I am grateful. So thank you.

You said: "When Eros and Pluto are linked by aspect, the combination may be anything but gentle. It seems the intensity of passion and longing may be redoubled as is the improbability of the match itself. Eros/Pluto contacts of any sort can be associated with impossible relationships where one partner is married to someone else, or living on the other side of the world, or in a situation that otherwise forbids the union. The taboo element of relating moves to new heights with Eros and Pluto linked."

Not only is the Eros aspecting Pluto in the horary but of course (lol) it does so as well in our natal synastry. Indeed, all of that--every bit of it is accurate. The entire situation is beyond taboo from our marriages to different faiths and cultures to patient doctor strictures. We are exactly the same age; that's it.

No! Nothing will happen physically (anytime soon) because in addition to him, sitting as Saturn in 12, I will simply not allow it right now. I feel erotically charged but full of angst and notions of duty... (so note how interesting it is that the Venus in the 6th house is moving out of opposition to Saturn and the Moon in 4th is moving from the trine.) Still, the SUN seems to telegraph and strip off any cavalier notion about my feelings. In the 8th, on Aries Zero, I can't lie and the horary shows my hand.

What do you make of his so very tight SATURN trine to the North Node conjunct SUN (ME)? When that Moon conjuncts Pluto I glean that is more of the same intense longing.

Yet sometimes I can feel his longing so it makes me insane. You said:

You represent something to him that has great meaning...
Do you mean that something to be erotic love (the Pluto/Eros construct) or to have what the SUN represents or both? The extent of his confession to me is to say that "You so inspire me."

You said the aspect between Eros and Pluto may also indicate a bond so extreme that no limitation can keep those afflicted apart. If that is the case, one must be willing to examine, again and again, the depths of their own soul. If they do not, the union will relentlessly draw into their lives event after event that will do it for them. The former, although requiring great courage, is usually less tormenting than the latter.

Right now I feel the "event after event" is the first then second medically scientifically bizarrely unexplainable cancer return (which pulled us together oddly). I think the fact that I won't go to another physician and he won't ask me to leave (though certainly he must have considered it??) is telling.