Saturn conjunct MC in horary chart

[samina]

Say, would Saturn conjunct the MC in a horary chart pretty much be an emphatic "NO" answer to the question asked?

Saturn seems to convey a pretty strong wet-blanket energy to me in such a situation.

Whaddy'all think?
samina

[jamma]

Hi Sam ...
I know zilch about horary, but wouldn't the interpretation have to do with the question?
I mean, say your question was, "Will I become president of a major accounting firm?" -- wouldn't Saturn on the MC be a "good thing" then?
... Jam
P.S. Mea culpa to all the horary experts -- hope you will help Samina out with her question ...

[Amoroso]

Hi Samina,

In Horary, Saturn on the MC could have to do with a question about an employer, or "making something public." In traditional Horary, Saturn delays, frustrates, limits, and squishes. The ancients saw that as a "bad" thing,--hence Saturn's nickname as the "greater malefic" but we've all experienced the positives of that at times.

The wording of the question is important, and the answer comes from the relationship, or lack thereof, of your significators (usually the sign of the AC and the Moon) and the ruler of the cusp in question.

However, if the significator of your question is ruled by Saturn (Capricorn or Aquarius,) Saturn on the MC could be an indicator that something is a go, depending on the aspects to your significators,

I am learning that Horary answers a very specific question for a very specific time. Once that moment passes, options open up if one is staying fluid and growing. William Lilly, the father of Horary, did not take into account the power of the feminine!

Do you want to post the chart and have us take a look?

Blessings,
Amoroso

[Kim Falconer]

Yes, we need an actual example.

Saturn on the MC could comment on the outcome of a 7th house question, or he could describe a 10th house person, or indicate where a person ruled by the Capricorn and Aquarius house 'is at'.

With horary, you need context.

Saturn on the MC is not an automatic 'NO'.

Post a chart?

Kim

[samina]

Thanks for your comments, Amoroso & Kim! I couldn't locate the original horary, for some reason, but I asked the same question (which is still active in my mind) and -- lo & behold -- I came up with another Saturn conj. MC!

The question is "Will he ask me out?" and the context is that I recently severed my professional relationship with a man for whom I've had a powerful attraction since last September -- we both felt an instant connection when we met, and I just couldn't bear the way the downright primal way he activated my energy every time I was around him. There was nothing I could do to neutralize it, and because of the professional relationship he definitely wouldn't take any action to expand into a personal relationship... and I don't know if he even will now that we don't see each other professionally.

I told him of my decision on Jan 18th, that after a professional event on the 28th I would be discontinuing my professional association with him, and I told him why. He did not seem surprised, although he was very disappointed. And, as usual, exceedingly professional. Between my Crab Sun/Scorpio Moon and his Crab ASC & Mars, our sharings can be so controlled and cirumspect, even though it's obvious that feelings run deep.

Anyway, I stepped back as I said I would & have not seen him since the 28th. I am inclined to think a short-lived but intensely transformational era has passed... but it's still within a two-week period that I anticipated would be his "action zone", during which he'd have some distance and time to connect with his curiosity about what else might be in the connection. After that two weeks has passed, it would seem crystal clear to me that he's simply not interested, or not enough to deal with the complexities of how it would still impact his professional reputation for us to become involved.

I think he would *definitely* be signified by Saturn, both in his role and his temperament. But I am clueless as to how to interpret the chart & the Saturn placement.

What do you guys think?

samina

[Kim Falconer]

Wow, here again we have Moon last over Mars in a horary question--that seems almost requisite on this forum!!! You are HOT for an answer, it seems!

You are ruled by Mars and Pluto (and co-ruled by the Moon). He is ruled by Venus (giving him the house of 'the other')

Will he contact you for a date? His ruler in your 3rd suggest message, phone call or 'delivery'. His ruler moving to trine yours (mars) in about 9 degrees, and the moon moving to trine the sun in about 7 degrees give a YES, but when? 7-9 days, weeks or months? It's not clear.

The Moon's final aspect is a trine to Mercury--news you'll like?--but she has some obstacles first, particularly the square to Pluto (it will be darkest before the dawn!)

The Moon is besieged between Mars and Saturn--you aren't comfortable in this position of 'waiting'.

Can anyone see something that might keep him from contacting at all? (he is beseiged between Neptune and Pluto as well...)

Comments?

Kim

[samina]

Thanks for your insights, Kim! This horary business is so interesting! I can't quite make out how to determine that the Moon's final aspect will be a trine to Mercury, though... how does that work?

His ruler Venus doesn't seem to be impeded, which is nice, but one can certainly see a lot of tensely eager energy in the 1st-house Jupiter opposing my ruler Mars. These are also square the Sun & Neptune -- what does that signify, I'm wondering. Who or what is the Sun?

The Moon square Uranus is clearly unsettling, but I'm curious what you all make of the Sun/Neptune influence -- elusiveness?

samina

[Kim Falconer]

The Moon, because she is fastest and closest to earth, 'counts' greatly in a horary chart. She is allowed EVERY aspect she is Applying to (waxing or waning) which means, every aspect she is 'moving towards to make it exact. It will take her another 24hours or so to reach 27 degrees of Gemini, and at that point she will trine Mercury. No other planet is found in a later degree, so that is her LAST aspect.

If is were a NATAL chart, you would day the Moon is square to Uranus. As a horary, you do NOT because Uranus is 9 Pisces and she is 11 Gemini. The EXACT aspect is over. It no longer counts...but it might describe an event in the recent past! Can you see how this works?

The first aspect the Moon is applying to describes the first action after the question is asked. The last aspect suggests how things 'end up'. (that trine to Mercury may be a good conversation or a lively connection, or even a clear and even understanding of the situation.)

Traditionally, the woman is the Moon and the Sun is the man in 'relationship questions', secondary to the actual rulers.

The Sun square the Ma/Jupiter opposition 'hems him in' and Neptune suggests he is not clear, or has misrepresented himself, or is in some way imbibed with "Neptune', (anything from addiction to mysticism!). His ruler Venus is Besieged (trapped between Pluto and Neptune) which means he is not free to act.

I get the feeling his is married or committed elsewhere, perhaps even in a clandestine way, that prevents him from taking action at this point in time. Are you sure he is 'free to act'? Yes, Neptune can mean something is 'fishy', elusive, ineffable. It's in his 10th house (Su/Ne) and I wonder if he is 'not what he seems' in some way, at least in how he presents himself at work.

What do you think?

Kim

[samina]

Interesting that my natal Venus happens to be at 27 Gemini...

Hmm... you raise an interesting point re the Neptunian influence. To be honest, it is one of those situations where "he never *said* anything to suggest he is committed elsewhere". And to be honest, he was evasive at one point when I was asking him about his living situation, so that I even asked him why he wouldn't be more forthcoming. Perhaps he was indeed hiding something.

He always *seemed* available... he would talk about previous girlfriends & an ex-wife but never about a current amour, and he even mentioned that one of his dogs, a puppy, "is so affectionate, it's like having a girlfriend". But you have piqued my curiosity on the availability issue, for sure.


One thing comes to mind: natally he has Sun opp. Neptune -- does that sort of thing come to bear in Horary... like my natal Venus position above? I would imagine it's common for shades of the individual charts to creep into the mix? In any event, perhaps he is completely vague about what he feels, and that vagueness precludes him from taking action.

A question about the Moon's aspects... why would the eventual Moon trine Uranus from 9Cancer be ruled out as the last aspect? Woudln't Uranus be the last planet in the chart -- I assume that is determined as being the last one before we get to Mars, my significator???

Thanks a bunch for your help!

samina

[Kim Falconer]

Okay, I see what you're doing.

No, it's not how the planets are lined up in Zodiac order that makes them first or last. It is their DEGREE.

The Moon is NOT applying to the trine to Uranus in Pisces because that aspect was perfected (exact) 2 degrees (about 4 hours) earlier. Can you see that? If not, stop right here and we'll take it step by step.

The LAST aspect of the Moon is the last Major aspect (conj, opp, sq, trine, sextile) that she makes by degree BEFORE changing signs.

As a very helpful exercise, list out in order of them happening each of the Moons applying aspects.

Let me know if there is still confusion here.

Kim

[samina]

Kim, I've got some interesting info pertaining to the above horary, where I was wondering if my previous dance instructor would ask me out. You had this comment on the chart:

get the feeling his is married or committed elsewhere, perhaps even in a clandestine way, that prevents him from taking action at this point in time. Are you sure he is 'free to act'? Yes, Neptune can mean something is 'fishy', elusive, ineffable. It's in his 10th house (Su/Ne) and I wonder if he is 'not what he seems' in some way, at least in how he presents himself at work.

Well, I found out yesterday that he's been in a long-term, committed, live-in relationship, which he obscured from my knowledge for five months. Not just all avoidance of speaking in "we" language, but actually phrased things in such a way that only single, available people do; and once, when we were talking about our living arrangements and he said something to the effect of "we've had the house for several years", I asked him who he lived with and he refused to answer. Very, very deceptive behaviour overall. I mean, to my mind, it is simply not possible to hide the fact for so long that you're in such a partnership, without doing so with very concerted conscious intent. We talked about everything under the sun, including relationships & sex, during the time I studied with him -- it would have been the most natural thing to have mentioned that he had a serious girlfriend.

Finding out this bit of information has had such an instant clarifying effect, a total wake-up, like having ice water tossed on you while dreaming. I can't think of a greater turn-off than that sort of deception. And what it says about how he views & treats his relationship.... eeeeeeewww. Gives me the creeps. The man is not who he represented himself to be, and I did not see through it.

Your words were spot-on! And I feel totally liberated from the connection. A great feeling, after having been so hooked into it for six months. Whooo!

Maybe his ruler in the 3rd house above somehow indicates a withholding of information, a lack of communication -- do you see any planetary association in the chart that could give that cue? His ruler, Venus, is in a conflicted relationship with the Sun/Neptune/Mercury conjunction -- would you normally think that the angle is strong enough to warrant that type of interpretation?

samina

[Amoroso]

Wow, Samina, that is so interesting. Kim wrote

"(that trine to Mercury may be a good conversation or a lively connection, or even a clear and even understanding of the situation.)"

And you received that "understanding of the situation!"

I have come to the conclusion that what is tricky about Horary is that we are taking a split moment in Time and interpreting it. So because it is related to Saturn (Time on this plane in one microscopic moment) we are looking at all the possibilities represented in that moment. The relationship between Mars and Venus shows interest from both sides at that split moment in time, but the rest of the chart shows the total picture, at that specific time. I wonder if others see it that way?

Thanks for sharing this chart,
Amoroso

[samina]

Thanks, Amoroso... that's it -- the moon's trine to Mercury! And look at that... it's the last lunar aspect, "how things end up"! I'm very, very impressed, indeed.

Amazing. I've reached the endpoint with all this. Thank. God.
Thanks for your feedback. Amor!

samina

[Kim Falconer]

Wow, it's good to get the feedback, and I am so glad you are released from this situation,
Samina!

I also said, The Sun square the Ma/Jupiter opposition 'hems him in' and Neptune suggests he is not clear, or has misrepresented himself, or is in some way imbibed with "Neptune', (anything from addiction to mysticism!). His ruler Venus is Besieged (trapped between Pluto and Neptune) which means he is not free to act.

That's were I 'got' the deception thing...plus your own confusion I think, just listening to you. His ruler is linked to Neptune also by mutual reception (which put Neptune at 17 Pisces) and by semi-sextile too.

What did Plato say? Everything that enchants also deceives?

And Amoroso, yes, that was so well put! Really elucidating.

Thank you both!

Kim

[samina]

Everything that enchants also deceives?

Well-said, Plato!

And what you added about his ruler Venus being Besieged by Pluto & Neptune... very interesting, because I know that he is conflicted about how he should be in relationship with women -- he is powerfully attracted to women as a general species , to his detriment, and feels he may be happiest with more than one, but yet remains in his committed relationship, out of a very strong romantic idealism, I think. He remains in this conflicted limbo, being true to neither impulse, really, and can't even speak candidly about it to those who trigger his own more primal instincts (such as yours truly).

And that, I think, neatly ties the matter up in a bow, for me anyway...! Man, does anyone else in these parts feel just TONS of information coming into their lives right now? What a difference some info makes to complete the picture and sort out the goings-on in one's life!!!!

Thanks for your comments, Kim!
sam