Timing Question

[chrissymgreen]

dear group,

i did a timing horary on when i would be reunited with a certain someone earlier this year. i've been studying this chart off and on since then, and i've discovered a few things about it that raise some questions for me. i was hoping maybe there were some here who could provide some insight. it's really hard to interpret your own horaries!

in this chart i used the 1st house for me (obviously) and the 7th for him, it was an important relationship and therefore i shied away from using the 5th house as some do. here is the chart (i hope i do this right, i just made a photobucket account):



so, im the moon at 5 libra and he's saturn at 23 cancer. there's really good reception -- the moon is in saturn's exaltation, triplicity and terms and saturn is in the moon's ruler and face, so there's strong mutual interest shown. we're approaching a square by 18°, and this is allowable since we allow the moon to make all aspects before she leaves her current sign. he's (saturn) in the 1st applying to the AC by 3°, and i'm (moon) in the 4th applying to the IC.

there's a timeable past event shown in the chart, too: i separate by trine from the sun in the 11th by 6° and he separates by sextile from the sun by 5°. if we use general significators, then the sun would represent his biological mate-finding prerogatives (conversely, my biological "I am woman" needs are shown by venus). this would seem to indicate the last time we saw each other, 10 months prior to the date of this chart in mid-may of this year. so 6° would equal 10 months.

saturn (him) does apply to the AC by 3° which would seem to indicate a period of 5 months, but i dont think planet to cusp aspects are strong enough to ensure an event. at first i thought so, but i am learning that the overall grain of the chart is more important. plus, the actual relationship between the significators should be looked at first.

this would mean then since the moon + saturn are approaching a square by 18°, the period of time indicated by this chart would be 30 months, or 2 years from november of this year.

ok, getting to my question...saturn (him) is in his detriment, and the moon (me) is in her face. this isnt very strong dignity, in fact saturn seems to be in a fairly weakened state. however, saturn and the moon do share a good deal of reception, and plus we are both angularly placed, very close to the cusps of our houses which should strengthen our significators quite a bit. i know dignity is qualitative and not quantitative, but i did do the essential / accidental dignity and debility scores for each -- the moon's is 21 and saturn's is 16.

i know a square between sigs with strong reception and from angular houses could very well be enough for perfection. however, saturn being in his detriment worries me. do you guys think that could destroy the question?

i had done another horary around this time about whether a weekend with a friend would happen. our plans often end up getting cancelled because she is a very busy lady. i was concerned that we wouldnt be able to get together. as it happened, we were able to keep our plans. in that chart, i was the moon in leo and she was saturn in cancer (so she was in detriment). there wasnt any aspectual relationship between us, but we were very close to a parallel, and i checked the ephemeris to see when the parallel perfected (it was very close), and she called practically 5 minutes after the parallel between our sigs perfected. obviously then, it doesnt always matter if a significator is in detriment, does it?


it's just that i have read that a sig being in detriment could destroy the question, and i have read that mutual reception abates all malice. what do you guys think? any thoughts?


any and all comments are appreciated!



sincerely (and thank you!),
chrissy

[Amoroso]

Dear Chrissy,

I really can not add anything to the timing of when you will see him again, but I know how important this is for you and will add a few two cents' worth.

First of all, I don't think Saturn in detriment has to do with the strength of the question, but is more a reflection of him--where he's "at" right now. There are too many indicators that you are connected.

Secondly, both the 4th house and the 4th from the 7th (the end of the matter for you and the end of the matter for the relationship) have very happy planets. I know that doesn't help with the timing, but it adds a real lift to the feel of the chart.

Blessings,
Amoroso

[Kim Falconer]

Because you are the astrologer AND asking the question, there IS something wrong (Saturn on the Asc). Something has been overlooked or misunderstood.

How the chart 'knew' you would overlook this is beyond me!

But the quick answer is, you (Moon) squares him (Saturn) in 18 cardinal, angular degrees which is 18 days.

What 'happened' 18 days after you asked this question? And can someone check the ephemeris and see if the Moon can complete the inconjunct to the Sun BEFORE the Sun changes signs?

Could Saturn rising in this chart be saying something about his energy and its effect on you? Is the thought of him "impeding" your actions in some way?

I don't see the 'mutual reception' as equating with mutual interest.
With a proper mutual reception (rulers) you can change the significator places and degrees, but that's no help here.

This chart moved very quickly, with the Moon cardinal and angular. It was 'all over' in 25 days. Do you see where I'm getting this from?

I think Saturn on the Ascendant was a statement about impediment, in this case, in reading the chart long after it had been completed.

Does this make any sense at all?

Kim

[chrissymgreen]

dear amoroso & kim,

thanks for the input here, this chart really does have me stumped due to in part as kim pointed out the angularity & modality of the sigs, because nothing happened 25 days after this chart was done. nothing's happened at all.

i sent the question off to an astro pen-pal of mine, and she set up the chart & offered up some interps but i asked for the files anyway because you know me, i have analyze them to death.

im guessing him being saturn in detriment of cancer really does speak to his weakened mental state, that really does seem to fit the circumstances surrounding the question.

if the chart was over quickly then the event indicated by the chart definitely never happened, so im guessing that's my answer!



thanks guys,
chrissy

[Kim Falconer]

Hi Chrissy,

So, this question was asked of another astrologer? That shifts the emphasis from: here IS something wrong (Saturn on the Asc). Something has been overlooked or misunderstood." --because Saturn in the first if YOU are the astrologer is like getting Saturn in the 7th (the 7th being the astrologer if someone else is asking)

Boy, that's confusing. Just ask if that didn't make sense.

I think Saturn on the Asc in this case means that you will experience delays and limitations as far as the question goes. 'He' is a 'problem' to you--a worry.

It also suggest that this man will have a very strong hold on you--one not likely to loosen up. The inconjunct to Pluto seems to increase your sense of isolation from him.

Clearly it is a '7th house' question, with the ruler on the Ascendant but again we have things moving very quickly.

When something 'happened' 18 days after the question was asked (June 6th) it may not have been a direct contact from him (obviously it wasn't) but it would have been something that effected or changed the question. You may have had a vivid dream, a realization, a discussion of him with a friend--a word back from the astrologer--something perhaps so subtle you can not recall it now.

In any case, I think this chart is over as the "when" has passed. Because that aspect was a square from his ruler to yours, the answer could be "not in any way you'll appreciate at the time!"

I'm very curious as to what the pen-pal astrologer said of this chart! How did they interpret the Saturn-Moon square and Saturn conjunct the Asc?

It's a tricky one, because Saturn says 'it sticks' and I'm guessing you feel this!

Warmly,
Kim

[chrissymgreen]

dear kim,

oh yes, i make it a habit of sending my questions off now. rob hand says horary works better this way.

let's see, she (the astrologer) said that the square with such strong reception between our significators coupled with the angularity of the sigs could very well bring perfection, but as far as timing goes she didnt say much. she interpreted saturn in the AC as a positive, since saturn is his significator and the house placement shows where his interests are.

the thing is, i read a lot on horary, anything i can get my hands (or eyes) on, so the differing viewpoints on whether reception can save a sig from being weakened by being in his detriment does confuse me a bit. i think i agree with amoroso, i tend to think this must speak more to his mental state than anything else.

www.worldastrology.net/articles/reception.html

mithras93.tripod.com/lessons/lesson7/index.html

www.astronor.com/dignities.htm

i have been reading john frawley:

www.skyscript.co.uk/timing.html

"We will assume that we have set our horary and judged that there will be an event. This will usually have been shown by an aspect between two planets; occasionally by a planet moving to a cusp, or even, rarely, vice versa. Planet to cusp aspects, however, are not to be relied upon to show an event unless the planet signifying the quesited is applying to the querent's cusp. The querent's planet applying to the cusp of the quesited, whatever Lilly may say to the contrary, tends to show desire rather than fulfilment and is not reliable - except when the event is more or less certain. That is, 'Will I get the job?' with Lord of the first applying to the MC: desire; 'When will I get the job?' with Lord of MC applying to the 1st: certainty.

The best behaved of charts show a timeable past event. These are not so common, but are delightedly received whenever they arrive. Suppose the question is 'When will I marry again?' and we know that our querent divorced three years ago. The chart shows her significator separating from Mars, the natural ruler of divorce. If it is y degrees separated from Mars, we know that y = 3 years. So if it now applies to aspect the ruler of the seventh house, signifying the future husband, in 2y degrees, judgment is simple: you will remarry in 2 x 3 = 6 years. It is as if the chart carries its own scale of calibration, as we might find the scale marked on a map. Conclusions we reach from this are highly accurate and highly reliable.

Few, however, are the charts that show such past events. Or, as in principle I suppose that they all should, few are they that show them with sufficient clarity to be of use. So we need to find something else - and this is when it starts to get complicated. For reasons which cannot be fathomed, students invariably display the utmost resistance to absorbing what follows, more than on any other subject. We would suggest, then, that those who wish to work with these ideas print out this page and forcefully insert it into their head through the left ear with the aid of a screwdriver."


one thing about this chart is that there is a clear-cut past timeable event shown. the moon (me) separates from a trine to the sun in the 11th by 6°. saturn (him) also separates from a sextile to the sun. now the sun in a relationship horary is generally taken to represent the male's urge to mate, to have a partner. in this particular horary the symbolism makes a lot of sense, because i am separating from his urge to mate in the social 11th, and this could easily represent the time i last saw him in mid-july of 2004. that's 10 months prior to the date of the chart, and so according to john frawley's methods 6° would then = 10 months. theoretically speaking then the approaching square by 18° would indicate a period of well, 30 months. some people though don't use frawley's methods of using past aspects to guage time, instead preferring to focus on angularity and modality. i'm not sure enough to know which is better, plus it's just really hard being able to intyerpret your own relationship horaries - it's darn near impossible actually!


anyways, thanks so mucht o both of you, i really appreciate your insights!



sincerely,
chrissy

[Kim Falconer]

Hi Chrissy,

No, I don't use Frawley's method for timing but that' not to say it may not be valid!

Why not just hang on to this chart and let 'time tell'.

You'll catch up with him again, or you won't---and if you do, you can learn something about the timing of this particular chart via hind sight!

Kim

[chrissymgreen]

UPDATE: i had a revelation this weekend that i wanted to share with you girls. it seems to confirm the 6° = 10 months theory. the mathematically-inclined side of me likes the idea that a chart can carry its own scale of calibration!

so i was thinking about the past aspect of me (the moon) trining the sun (men, urge to mate) by 6° in the social 11th and how if this represents when we parted ways, 6° would equal a period of 10 months. now consider the moon's major applying/approaching aspects:

moon conjunct jupiter rx 4°
moon trine venus 6°
moon square saturn 18°

the moon conjunct jupiter excites me, because jupiter rx rules his 12th house of self-undoing and isolation. so, this chart shows me coming into contact with his isolation about 6 months after this chart was done - in november of 2005! this is creepy, because for the past month i actually have made a few attempts to contact him -- i made a card for his birthday which i mailed, i sent a couple of short friendly e-mails and i called and left a message once. he hasnt responded, and this has disappointed me of course...but the chart showing this happening right about now just astounds me! i cant believe it's so spot on...

this cheers me, because check out that moon trine venus...sometime in march 2006, 10 months after this chart was done, i will have some pleasant event, maybe come to terms with how things are or realize i am happy, something like that. venus is ruler of 4th & 11th, so she represents the end of the matter and friends, hopes & wishes. i think something good should happen, and venus is in the 11th so this is even better. look, i'm (the moon) even in libra, her sign, so she favors me.

this seems like some good news!



thanks all,
chrissy

[Kim Falconer]

It's interesting. Let's keep an eye on it and see how things pan out!

(Pan may surprise you yet!)

Kim