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Post by guestjade on Dec 9, 2005 7:09:30 GMT
Jamma,
What a nasty and heartless trick. Deception is so.....well, deceptive. It preys on the hearts of the innocent. Some are masters at it. "Emotions as an experiment". Guess the human species are consdered a "step up" from the animals. But guess in a sense we are one too.......Don't know how other's place themselves above that though.....must be gods without hearts. I don't want a part in their kingdom.
Neptune does indeed seem to bring illusionment and the shattering therein, I know all too well. I also identify with the experience of when uranus opposed your yod and the loss of your Father. With uranus conjunct my moon/mars inconjunct back when, I felt like I awoke each day "falling into a large black abysss". I found I have completely igonored my merc. quincunx neptune. Maybe that says something right there.
Will post my chart when I get a chance.
Light, Jade
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Post by jamma on Dec 9, 2005 8:21:17 GMT
Dear Jade, Just a thought about Mercury quincunx Neptune -- Do you get lots of dreams and inspirations but sometimes wonder where they came from? ...
Today I had a small epiphany re: Saturn ... Reading about Kronos eating his children because he was terrified of his own creations, I realized that's how I feel -- torn between wanting to "put it out there" and wanting to snatch it back for fear of how the work will be received ... And the ego issue -- a real Catch-22 for me ... Ideally (I tell myself), I should be content to write or make art just for myself, that the act of creating should be enough ... a chiding voice inside (gee, wonder whose??!) assures me that "showing off" is vain and egotistical ... but at the same time, Saturn's placement in Leo seems to require an audience (there's just no pleasing this guy!) ...
And Saturn in the 7th ... Lemme tell ya, I am SO TIRED of having to work at making relationships happen ... The problem is, even if the romance does get going, the other person is already hobbled by "debt" because he hasn't put as much effort into the relationship as I have (Saturn is such a good bookkeeper!) ... Over and over, it has proven to be a recipe for disaster ...
But how do we break free of these old self-defeating patterns?
more soon ...
Jam
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Post by Amoroso on Dec 9, 2005 14:43:00 GMT
Dear Jam,
Speaking as someone with a stellum of Moon/Uranus/MC and Pluto/Jupiter in Leo, all getting that Saturn transit now, (and in opposition to Chiron/Eros in Aquarius) I can tell you that needing an audience for your creations is NOT selfish, it is a necessity.
Saturn, the stern father, says, "why do you want to show off?" (And, while I adored my father, that was his literal voice--he, himself a musician, so it was HIS father's voice coming through him.)
I would look to all you have going in Aquarius, the 11th house and Uranus contacts to help break Saturn's restrictions and turn the energy into something that can help bring things into a new reality. After all, Saturn and Uranus are meant to work together in this fashion.
Somewhere there is a thread on why both Saturn and Uranus rule Aquarius. Kim did a great job of explaining the duel rulership.
Also look to where your Sun is for clues as to how you need to experience CREATIVITY in order to feel fulfilled. A fifth house Sun in Virgo will need to express differently than a 12th house Sun in Libra. That fifth house Sun needs the childlike joy of playing, playing, playing, with information and details in a fastidious manner as well as the good "parent" beaming in appreciation. The 12th house Sun in Libra needs to be contributing in a cooperative way to a corporate expression of the arts or social concerns to feel fulfilled. I know you know these things already, you express yourself so beautifully, but sometimes on this forum we can get so excited about asteroids and aspects we forget to look at basics!
Hope this helps, Blessings, Amoroso
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Post by jade on Dec 9, 2005 21:16:09 GMT
Amoroso,
Thank you for mentioning and reminding that uranus is about breaking restrictions. You just gave me an insight about something that I've never taken the time to really understand.
With the moon/mars quincunx and venus opp. neptune "sacraficing for love" was what I felt one should do and my emotionalism was invested in this. But with venus/lilith sq. uranus I was also torn in relationships, like they took a part of me away from self. Guess this ties into what and how much I was sacraficing for as the ultimate question. Uranus is that part that says "wake up , look at what is going on here!" In my case, this was hard because it meant I had to get "self-ish" because love was about giving, giving, with asking nothing for in return. Like I had to be a saint or something while denying my humaness (alot of spiritual beliefs and issues came up in tihs process as well). I think the mars/moon quincunx was aided by trans. neptune in order to spiritualize my emotions but at the same time, I had to delve the human depths of emotions in order to do it so that my understanding of love be "brought up" a notch. One cannot understand love while denying themselves! Stephen Arroyo writes also that's it's a subtle form of egotism when we feel the necessity to sacrafice in this way. Oh my gosh.....that was my disilluisionment because all my issues, fears, angers, hurts, etc. made this abundantely clear!
Jamma, I know what you mean about the feeling of giving more than the other party. With Saturn in 7th, I always committ myself until the bitter end! Then comes the choice between myself or the other person (if they have not walked out first, that is), but if given the need, I will go seperate ways too, because Saturn in hard aspect has seemed to require I choose myself (just you and me again God. You are my boyfriend lol)
Eileen Naumann didn't state anything about the Catch 22, did she. She said to write for self. And yet like you, in the back of my mind are those voices also, but I'm getting better. There's another voice that says, "your life is your truth, and another's judgement, perspective, etc., will not change that reality one iota". My ears tend to perk up a bit....."yes, thanks". But I TOTALLY identify with the Kronos thing. Maybe "idenification" with our creations is key. If destroyed "out there" can we stand the destruction? Maybe the answer is still no for me, not sure.....I'm still working through the creation part!
I want to throw something in too about the "Father" (Saturn thing)....."the voice inside.....gee, wonder whose". I remember a time as a teen some young me were looking at me, and I remember knowing they were looking at me. My Father said "I know you know those guys are looking at you". He made me feel guilty and ashamed because I was being admired. My Father made me very self conscious in a not so pleasant way. Saturn seems to take a simple moment of pleasure or pure being sometimes, and just stomp on it.
I'm still looking into the neptune/merc. quincux thing. And yes, there's been a bit of "unknown" elements to certain things that have popped up in different ways. Makes life so much more interesting! (the unknowing part).
Must go xmas shop......Best, Jade
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Post by jamma on Dec 10, 2005 2:19:49 GMT
Dear Amoroso ... Your poor dad -- passing on that stern voice he himself must have found so hurtful as a child ... you must thank your Stars for that stellium in Leo which helped you stand up to the rebuke!
Thanks so much for expressing this issue with such clarity! And for reminding us that it's easy to get caught up in the new and arcane and miss the obvious ...
It's what I've been feeling (Moon/Merc conjunct in Pisces on cusp of 3rd -- thoughts are actually felt) -- that "back to basics" was becoming a necessity (Gemini NN trying to assert itself against the expansive Sag SN's reveling in each new thread on the forum) ...
My Sun is in Pisces in the 2nd, sextile Cap Asc, which are both receiving the Yod energy from Saturn in the 7th ... but as Ruler of the Chart, Saturn seems to be in two places at once, ganging up on the Sun, whose energy is already kind of diffused by watery Neptune ...
I've been reading Kim's book on Aptitude, which points me back in the direction of the arts ... but as soon as I get there, Saturn pops up and says, "But how are you going to support yourself??!" In this case, Saturn really is being kind, because for the past year I've been living on my husband's life insurance money, which won't last forever ... Meanwhile, Chiron in Scorpio in the 10th makes a (5 degree) trine to my Sun, telling me that "Just any job won't do!" And, of course, Chiron is also square Saturn in Leo, saying, "Bug off, old man!" *long pause* Well, this was interesting -- I went into the bedroom to check the Chiron paraphrase, got to reading more of Kim's book and fell into a long involved dream -- dad and mom and husband ... and long pool, actually a roadway designed to make ppl on the sidewalk look like they are walking on water ... this will take some analyzin' ... more soon Jam
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Post by jade on Dec 12, 2005 2:37:39 GMT
Hi Jamma,
I'm going to give posting my chart a try:
achart_0a4filefkWwP-u1066597128.gif.
As I type it's not showing you can "click" on it.....maybe when I post it?
I found that my progressed chart has Leo rising @ 5 deg. and so saturn has crossed that asc. just these past weeks or so. Guess I should be asking myself what saturn in Leo means! I've been given to being somewhat withdrawn these past months socially. I feel Gesh, I already felt this way several years back when saturn crossed my asc. natally although it was more imposed due to health issues. I'm happy though that saturn is now in my third house natally trine sun/merc. (more focused).
If this chart goes through, please feel free to imput. I simply could not get the chart with the seperating and applying info. on the grid to save to my computer.
Jade
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Post by jade on Dec 12, 2005 2:38:46 GMT
Nope, Jamma,
For some reason my chart cannot be accessed by clicking on the link......any idea what I'm doing wrong?
Thnks, Jade
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Post by Kim Falconer on Dec 12, 2005 3:52:57 GMT
You need to put the whole web address of the page your chart is hosted on--like ooo.photobucket.com/albums/ (blah blah) achart_0a4filefkWwP-u1066597128.gif Do you see what I mean? Cut and past the address you see in the address bar when you are viewing your chart--see if that works. Kim
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Post by jamma on Dec 15, 2005 9:05:00 GMT
Dear Jade, I haven't forgotten you ... I have been pondering (and dreaming) on your chart and see that we do have some things in common ... You are also blessed with a "double helping" of Saturn ... besides being dignified in his own sign of Capricorn, he's in the 7th house (natural home of Libra, his exaltation) ... thus, good and cozy, he feels free to go about his unmerry way causing delays and restrictions till the cows come home (probably tells them when to come home, too) ... Even though Saturn is quite a few degrees away from your Moon, she's still in Capricorn, which might put a damper on your emotions ... then, with your Cap Moon quincunx your Asc & Mars, I'd say Saturn has had a pretty good run for his money -- sheesh! ... My intuition is that your Aries Sun wishes your Mars in Gemini could join in his "battle" (square) against Saturn ... unfortunately, the quincunx prevents Mars' missiles from reaching their target ... and, even if they hit, Saturn might react by just digging in his heels -- or maybe fight back by increasing his grip on your Moon or bolting the door to your house of relationships ... Does any of this jibe with your experience?? Of course, this is coming straight from my gut without the benefit of research or authority, so please feel free to tell me I'm full of crap! ... ... Love, Jam P.S. It just occurred to me that what those of us with the dreaded -- dum da-DUM-dum -- Saturn in the 7th might need to do is make friends with him ... It reminds me of when I hit a post and dented my car ... I didn't want to go home because I was afraid my dad would yell at me ... a friend advised me just to admit to my dad that I wasn't as good a driver as he was ... and, to my astonishment, as soon as I did that, he became as sweet as a lamb about the whole thing and told me, "don't worry -- anybody can have an accident"... When I let go of my pride and quit being defensive, everything turned out ok ... So, altogether now: Dear Saturn, we admit you are wiser than we are and have much to teach us ...
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Post by GuestJade on Dec 15, 2005 21:26:05 GMT
Jamma,
Thank you for your insights. You're definitely not full of crap! And, I'm honored to have had a Pisces "ponder and dream on my chart!" I feel almost self indulgent to respond.... But yes, I also felt naked for a few days with my chart out there all by herself! Did you see that new aspect made when all the lines on my chart crossed in order to cover her privates? : ) .....
One of the things that I had to consider and never had before, is the two battles going on (perhaps the duality of a Gemini Mars? ). ~That~ made me think about things in a different way and that's the beauty of another's perspective!
This subject conjures up processes past and dreams not totally understood. Like why my female side is now sometimes judgemental of the males portrayed in my dreams. She "sizes them up" and sometimes, they are found wanting (sometimes she likes/loves them too). It's interesting though that up until a certain point in my life, I had no bias whatsoever about male/female interaction and I still don't consider myself sexist at all. Yet, this whole dynamic has played out in my life and I wonder (s.n. Aries) if the roles are reveresed in that I have been on the end of a nearly "repressed female syndrome" (female present life, very much having been emeshed in a middle eastern culture). That alone could be taken as a stereotypical judgement, but it's not. My ex- husband was middle eastern and nothing like the stereotype. He changed diapers, cooked dinner, served me tea in the bath tub and even ironed his own shirts (when we were both working). I just wanted to qualify that on behalf of a culture that has many virtues beyond what we see on t.v. Never the less, the second relationship I was in was again with a middle eastern man and at times, certain genetic pre-dispostions did come up. One time, he walked in front of me. Through the process, it brought up so many issues having to do with my femininity that I do feel it certainly got me in touch with my repressed anger (12th house mars) and Saturn that has repressed my female side (moon).
On the one hand, if taken at face value, one might conclude that with a s.n. Aries sq. Saturn, I've gotten my due. As a male in another life, maybe I was a REAL JERK (as I called my past partner). On the other hand, as a female presently, I lacked self confidence and felt to "hide my light under a bushel" was a form of humilty. Saturn has a way of reminding one that they are "no more important than one grain of sand" and essentially, it's not such a negative thing lest the ego run totally off with the self! Never the less, I'm venturing that Saturn in the 7th connected to Libra nodes has alot to do with finding inner equalibrium and maybe this could only be attempted by an outward relationship seemingly so unfair?
My ex-husband fit the profile of Saturn in 7th. A father figure, Cancer. He was almost ten yrs. older than me. He was responsible and safe. Still, I ~did~ long for the means to prove self sufficient (s.n. Aries?) if only to me. It felt "do or die", and so I left my husband to learn to stand on my own two feet. Later, I found myself sort of like Dorothy standing before Oz quaking in fear, "you mean I have to bring back the broom of the Wicked Witch of the West?" I feel this is what Mars quincunx Moon symbolizes for me and was "nothing" (as Kim states about quncunx's) that we consciously bargin for. I now name Mars-Moon quincunx "the task toward emotional self sufficiency", and since Saturn is involved in both moon and 7th house,......via relationships. And yes Jamma, at times when I didn't want that task and tried to fall back on the relationship with hopes and dreams that all would be fine, it's as if Saturn did bolt the door there, saying "sorry", because there was no emotional safety. There was none of the stabily Saturn had promised before. Maybe quincunx's are "tasks" though, esp. if Saturn is involved (your spin on it has helped me to look at it this way).
And, I had never thought about Mars battling on two home fronts; one on behalf of the moon, mars saying like, "where is your back bone, why don't you honor your feelings? Fight, girl, fight! And the other, involving the sun. So, so interesting that in my last relationship, the person stated one time sarcastically, "I know you like to shine". Shine?! I'm barely working through an inferiorty complex! That says alot there to me about the whole Sat-Sun, Mars-Moon thing. Your trying to get a foot up on something while at the same time, emotionally, something is holding you down. But I think esstenially, this is simply the outward manifestation of my own inner male and that my own "maleness" was represented by someone very repressive. At least I've been trying to understand this. I'm new to Archtypes and am still seeking to get deeper understanding.
Anyway, us human's are so complicated! I think I'll go have a latte and take enjoyment in something simple. Like Christmas shopping for my Grand-daughter. She's four and I saved her shopping for last because it's so much more fun!
Thanks for giving me more to "chew" on in futher understanding Saturn's most omnipotent place in my life. Pisces dreams help us to visualize the meaning before we put them to words. I hope I've done an adequate job!
XO, Jade
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Post by GuestJade on Dec 19, 2005 9:17:25 GMT
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Post by jamma on Dec 19, 2005 22:44:03 GMT
Dear Jade, Your post gave me a LOT to chew on, too! ... still chewing, actually... I had never considered my "inner male" as the South Node or its role interacting with Saturn in the 7th ... My SN is conjunct Eros, Euphrosyne, Mnemosyne and the Lot of Marriage (Valens) at 7 Sagittarius ... Jumpin' Jupiter, that's a lotta Sag energy trining my Saturn/Pluto midpoint in Leo ... I always assumed it was my egotistical Animus, believing no flesh-and-blood male was his equal and therefore not good enough for me, but now I wonder if Jupiter, Saturn and Pluto have been conspiring to keep me without a partner -- hmmmpf! Meanwhile, I completely identified with your comment: Sometimes I feel "unworthy of love" and wonder what it would be like to bask in the knowledge that one is lovable ... I always feel the "imperative" to change myself to be more of what "the other" wants ... but it comes back to haunt me, because by doing so, I am never loved for "myself" ... of course, that then opens up a HUGE well of anger projected at the man because of what I myself have chosen to do! Gotta figure out the task Saturn is asking and hope that by completing it I will be set free ... Could male Saturn in Leo quincunx my feminine Sun in Pisces and Cap Asc, be saying, "Don't repress the anger"? The other day I got a chance to do that in real life when a Leo man tried to dominate a situation to my detriment ... my Mars in Aquarius (heh-heh) stood up to him, but afterward I felt awful ... even though I knew I had done the right thing by protecting my interests, I still felt like a "bad girl" for defying the father! Perhaps the duality of your Gemini and my Pisces enables us to see (and identify) with both sides of a situation simultaneously ... more later -- still got more to chew ... Love, J
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Post by jade on Dec 23, 2005 17:19:29 GMT
Hi Jamma,
I don't know either if the SN - Saturn connection represents the inner male, except that as the post unraveled, certain things just seemed to fit....sort of reflection like.
I'm not familiar with the asteroids you included. I have something new to look up, but I think that when someone (like your Leo friend) seeks to steer us then we have a right go with our feeling. It's been a hard one for me also. Like I'm being willful yet that Gemini (or like your Pisces) see's both sides. Maybe though your Pisces Sun - Cap. Asc. is speaking up and not letting others impose their will upon you. Maybe Leo Saturn is the strength in there, strengthening your softer parts and you're getting to try it out and integrate it with your Sun and Asc. when other's seek to control you, etc. (wish it were not so or necessary however).
But like you I've modified myself to fit another's idea, and then like you, I've ended up angry! It took me a long time to figure out that I was accomodating other's dreams (or fantasies). With neptune opp. venus, this has been a theme in my life I now realize. I then I want the guy to relate to me as "a women", as an equal, etc. I've already ruined it by projecting some kind of "image". Then I too wonder why I don't feel loveable or through failed situations, unworthy of love. Maybe it's because I switch gears in the middle and ruin the ideal of what someone thought me to be, or, and this is a biggie, they are not what I had projected and meanwhile I'm left an emotional shambles because they had other intentions and values.
I hope you have a great Christmas! I have dilly- dallied today and have a myriad of things to attend to. Warmest Holiday Wishes, XO Jade
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Post by tom on Mar 31, 2006 23:46:10 GMT
(i love this forum! there's something for everyone.)
resurrecting another old post...
on the dreams: yes yes yes, our dreams are telling us things. whether literal or not, there're infos to be had! so often it's in symbols, but then sometimes there's a word - i've also had one of those, and woke myself up immediately to write it down, feeling in the dream that i'd been carefully orchestrating my entire life to end up at this party and have this stranger whisper that word in my ear. my word was "mahat", which is, in the sankhya philosophy (the ancient framework pre-hinduism & -buddhism), the undifferentiated cosmic intelligence - the thing that connects us all...the next step it takes is to divide into ahamkara, which is the ego state, from which a person can claim an "i"ness, a distinct self.
but the real reason for responding, a personal story on sani: twice i went to a jyotishi, an indian astrologer. following the first reading i began studying that system, as i'd felt that the jyotir vidya (the goddess which is the system, the branch of knowledge), had called to me. i was studying tropical stuff, mostly the evolutionary people, but i felt like the vidya didn't care what vernacular i used (and the evolutionary folks are more in line with the spirit of jyotish than a lot of other tropical folks). at the first reading, the jyotishi told me to do the mantra on saturn, as saturn is the strongest planet in my chart in that system (and he needed to be made happy). i noted that with skepticism and around a year later did the mantra, 23,000 chantings of the version in one of james braha's books. saturn's in my 9th in that system, the house of dharma, and it rules the 5th - the 1st, 5th and 9th are the best houses in jyotish, and to have the ruler of the 5th in the 9th is pretty, well, awesome. and so saturn's said to be bad, the greater malefic, it's good some things, as written earlier here...as long as you're willing to work. now, in tropical-speak, i have this long-term saturn-sun play working itself out (natally an inconjunct, with prog. sun now opposing natal saturn), so i knew that making friends with saturn energy would be a good thing. the jyotishi said that giving that big nod to saturn would be a long-term benefit, and that i could chant that mantra whenever i wanted. (but beginning it, i did start on a saturday on a waxing moon, for the record.) what i've noticed is that the saturn energy in me is now less about restriction from fear, and more about the use of my energy - a lesson to everyone who whines about saturn, surely? so, i'm appearing to get and am feeling younger...and more productive. and less judgmental. and more compassionate - more of it coming out, available to be shown. i already look much younger than i am (look early 20s, am 33), and so to start feeling/acting more youthful is surprising to most people i know. they've been waiting for me to start being less serious, and it's happening.
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Post by Kim Falconer on Apr 1, 2006 22:04:02 GMT
Thank you Tom. Your anecdote is quite informative...a strong model for honoring Saturn and how Saturn might create change in the outer expression when he is acknowledged. What grabbed me the MOST about this post, however, was your comment first up about a 'word' in a dream. It's early morning here and ever since I got up hours ago I've been mulling over a WORD that was said to me in a dream I had last night! You can imagine my surprise when I read the introduction to your post! …but then sometimes there's a word ! My word wasn't ancient or mystical or obviously metaphysical in any way...it was simply the word, " SPEED". It was said to me in response to an approach I made to a man who is a friend in 'real' life. He pulled back from me and when I looked at him questioningly, he explained his actions by saying "speed". In the dream, I though, "Is he uncomfortable because he is on drugs?" but then I was brought abruptly awake and I thought perhaps the word had to do more with a perception of time. I'm baffled but so appreciate your synchronicity with this! Kim
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