blackmoon lilith

[tom]

yes, that's the one i kept misplacing.

thanks for posting it.

[psychick]

You are welcome.

As a gesture of goodwill, do you have any idea what this means please? (the true BML in relation to these composite aspects)

COMPOSITE:-

true BML 12.5' cancer
conjuncts
mercury 12'26 cancer
MC 12'50 cancer
Venus 13'10 cancer

squares
valentine 9'24 libra
AC 11'39 libra

opposes
IC 12'50 capricorn


Does it mean there is an ease of love and communication and expression of the relationship through self, or is it more of a "run for the hills" and don't look back dynamic please?

Thank you!

[tom]

hi psychick,
sounds like you're looking for a definitive "go - no-go" affirmation, which i won't give. even looking at the whole chart(s) doesn't make that sort of advising something a responsible astrologer should do.

what i can say definitively is that each person's reaction to lilith energy is the deciding factor whenever she comes up anywhere, whether natally, synastry or a composite. in the composite, we're talking about the relationship as a 3rd entity - there's you, the other, and the third thing you make together that's your relationship. lilith in the composite represents where the couple as a unit needs to connect to the instinctive side together.

from the data you offer, this for you and this person has to do with connecting emotionally (cancer) to the instinctive together, and being willing to share what you find/learn with others (venus) in some sort of public way (MC). public doesn't have to mean famous or infamous, but something outside the home, in the community or something like that.

there's a lot of fear floating around about lilith in the collective psyche that individuals download and unconsciously run. if the primal, instinctive wisdom lilith brings is felt by someone to be threatening, he or she will respond with defensive measures when encountering the wild, instinctive side in other people. and we then can see each person in a relationship building walls and leaving each other, or lashing out or blaming the other for his or her perceptions of his or her historical experiences related to lilith's story, and you have messes upon messes...

so, you can see that i can't answer your question as you ask it, but i hope this is useful. the big thing about all astrology, whether natal, synastry or composite charts, is that we can't tell what people will choose to do. in other words, a person's free will determines his or her experience of the energies in the chart(s).

[Juliet]

My experience is that synastry does not telt, the whole story, the actual communication and experience does. Think of how many people 'crowd' our planet.
I had an awful synastry with the father of my children, and it was difficult at times, but we also had great times. Even after 22 years we were not bored with each other, and it was not disastrous, (except for his almost psychotic periods) but I eventually I felt I could only grow out of the relationship.
I had fairy tale synastry with a commitment phobiac, and I have good and sturdy synastry with my current bf, lots of trines, but we've had some difficult times.
Look at your own chart, what do you do with all possibilities? How do you live it?

[Kris]

Interesting stuff. Thanks Tom for writing about BML so well
.
Psychick, composit chart speaks about how the natives together manage the relation. If one of them do not natally possess the strength of dominant themes shown by the composit, that native grows restless with time pursuing the relation. You may read this statement in tandem with what Tom wrote about BML.

The BML conjunct mer, ven and MC does not speak well in the same token. Venus speak of values in true sense whereas BMLs projections are deceptive and painful. How do these 2 different energies go together in a composit has to be actually experienced.

Overall the strengths and weaknesses of individual horoscopes in pursuing relations in general hold the key.

I hope this helps

Love
Kris

[ariesmoon]

Can I just add a book recommendation here psychick? Not to cover Lilith in particular but just for a wonderfully written and wise examination of synastry and composite charts, and how composites work alongside natal charts - Steven and Jodie Forrest's "Skymates" Volumes I and II. Volume I is "Love, Sex and Evolutionary Astrology" and Volume II deals with the Composite Chart. I read and re-read them - and learn something else every time.

[psychick]

Thank you Tom - l totally get where you are coming from!

Thanks Juliet and Kris.
Yes Kris, l agree... l will look at the dynamic of the charts.


Ariesmoon - great recommendation! I will definitely get these books, thank you

[Juliet]

I might be off, it's late here, and I'm tired, but the Sun-Lilith opposition is the closest aspect in my chart and I always love this text:

'Especially (but not only) in a female chart, a major aspect of Black
Moon to the Sun tends to create a 'Lilith character': strong-willed,
stubborn, independent mind and lover of freedom, original,
non-conformist, rebellious, passionately disliking routines and
enslavement at large. Lilith was the woman who did not need Adam and
left him - not a common thing to do in early biblical times - one
reason being that she bluntly refused to lie under him during
lovemaking.
There is a profound need to go beyond limitations of all kinds.
This, naturally, leads the native to challenge establishment. At
times, it will create difficulties; a Lilith character does not
hesitate to tell her/his boss what she/he thinks of him, and can't
give a damn about consequences once she/he has made up her mind to
do something.
The eyes shine, at times defiantly. The personality is sharp, with a
marked taste for intensity. This, in Clairvision language,
corresponds to violent astrality - venom in large measure!
There are strong likes and dislikes, and a tendency to know
immediately whether one likes someone or not.
This may have to do with the profound insights into the
psychological motivations of other people. Being herself/himself so
well in touch with her/his shadow, the native has a fine
understanding of other people's psyche. A Lilith character is often
subtle, with a great sense of nuances, and an EXTREME sensitivity.
When experienced on its highest level, a major aspect of Black Moon
to the Sun can make the native quite psychic: premonitory dreams,
intuition, natural affinity with the hidden mysteries of life, and
clairvoyance.'

[tom]

juliet - thanks for posting this, it's a good view into that aspect. and with the oppostion, it's a confrontation between the two, a standoff. the more conscious one is about the value of lilith's input, the better. unconsciously (where lilith is assumed to be demonic), a lot of people will expect lilith to show up and give them difficulty, and they'll manifest that.

i'd like to offer that as adam and lilith are natural mates - each is the other's half - lilith craves reconnection to adam, as adam craves reconnection to lilith. we think that because she fled, she doesn't need him. yet i feel the need to be with him that she does feel is just not more important than honoring her true nature, hence leaving him as a choice of self-love, to say "no thanks" to the invitation to domination & subjugation.

also, lilith won't lie exclusively below him. most interpretations don't catch that she expects equality (as they're made from the same stuff, indeed are two halves of one original being). it's that she requires give and take, and refuses domination. adam's desire to dominate her is not in man's true nature, only the version of man men are supposed to be according to patriarchal culture. and so a woman healthily in touch with lilith has no trouble being on the bottom as part of a healthy give and take - for lilith in reality (outside the mythos and our expectations of her given what we've inherited), any and all sexual positions (and, analogously, ways of interacting with a partner) are fair game, as long as they're chosen according to the needs of instinct, of the moment, and not from a desire to dominate. and what's critical to point out is that lilith does not desire to dominate - we hear that she's out for vengeance and is always on top in her world, yet that's some misdirection we've inherited and taken to be truth.

that leads to a note that many interpretations mention that lilith will not therefore be in relationship, which is also a misunderstanding. it reflects the patriarchal shaping of the archetype into the particular mythos we've inherited as cultural cautionary tales - don't assert equality, don't expect to be honored if you're a woman, accept shame for being wild...

we have to listen into our own experiences and instincts about what any myth is about, as myths are tools of instruction and control by any group in power to reinforce its agenda. we're familiar with the co-opting and editing of myths by all hegemonies, and how reads on mythic figures change from one culture to the next. we need to catch ourselves if we ever tend to reinforce the patriarchal take on lilith, which is to drill into us a fear of the wild - demonizing of the natural feminine - and the choice to honor the self above the monotheistically-informed majority.

and then re venom from lilith: it's a reaction to how she's been treated, not part and parcel of the archetype as we live it. the demonization of her self-honoring instinct has damaged practically every woman in the history of the patriarchy (and we've all lived lives as women in the history of the patriarchy, at some point!) that our lilith inheritance seems to be made of rage. it's critical that we heal it and learn to connect with the wisdom her primal, irrational and instinctive urges offer.

i'm giving a workshop on august 7th in LA at the bodhi tree bookstore, "Healing the Wild: The Astrological Lilith," and will share my developing thoughts about how to turn the story as we've inherited it (life-negating/self-hating & destructive) on its head and stretch into more self-love and -honor of ourselves-as-Lilith. i'll sell CDs of that later in the summer. i'm also writing all this stuff out as a book on Lilith, both taking apart the myth and offering a life-affirming take on the astrology of Lilith, i expect to be done later in the year. the lilith natal report i'm offering now touches on all of that.

i just needed to get that out! i'm always on the lookout for interpretations of lilith rooted in the patriarchal shaping of the story...

[Aphrodite]

This is great news about your work, Tom! Will you be exclusively focusing on blackmoon lilith or including the asteroid? There have been explanations given about the difference between all the liliths, but I still get confused. I've not done much with blackmoon lilith because I can't determine between mean and true, what they mean and when to use them. Much to think about here.

My asteroid lilith is in Virgo conjunct Pluto in the 11th house. Mean BML is also in Virgo in 11th in opposition to my moon. I get frustrated with volunteer groups and tend to be a loner, not a joiner. I practically sacrificed myself to my church as a teenager and only got myself hurt. Now, when I am operating in a group, I tend to leave as soon as any of my "issues" are triggered.

True BML is all alone in Libra in my 12th house. I don't know much about it and never paid much attention. However, it is conjunct the Toro of my bf in his 8th house. His mars is in Taurus in his 2nd house. I KNOW from his previous relationships that money is a big issue. Thus, far I have been able to stay clear of the fray. I'm hoping that forewarned is forearmed for the continuous future, but I feel the potential conflict lurking nearby.

[Aphrodite]

Oh, I have another question - not about me. What about an exact conjunction of true BML (her) and Eros (him) in synastry? This couple has a lot of problems in the bedroom, but there are other astrological factors that point to this fact. They are being driven apart by it. Is this aspect part of the problem or the solution? She thinks he is selfish in the bedroom. He says that she never wants sex unless she initiates it, which is rare and only during her cycle and only on her terms. He admits that it is difficult to "perform" under these circumstances. He's been to the doctor, but the pill doesn't always work.

[tom]

hi aphrodite,
i'm focusing on the true black moon lilith. i haven't used the asteroid much, and i don't use the dark moon. i suspect that each can serve as a useful way to get into the dark places lilith energy is kept in, perhaps different because they're different phsyically. maybe the asteroid's a less intense way to work with it because we can see asteroids, and they're real bodies, and there are precedents. but the tBML is what has spoken to me, and what my conversations with lilith and her associates have lead me to. it offers a direct route into the irrational/instinctive, and perhaps i've been guided there because my tBML's conjunct my moon-mercury. i do feel strongly that dealing directly with these deep emotions is the only way to really heal/release them.

i have a podcast on lilith here:
www.denadecastro.com/Site/Podcast/Entries/2008/5/30_Black_Moon_Lilith_with_Tom_Jacobs.html
you'll find my mean vs true answer there - also in the article "notes on lilith" on my site: tdjacobs.com/notesonlilith.html
i recommend using the true position exclusively. you can find it for sure by entering "h13" in astro.com's extra bodies text box under their extended chart selection. it'll show up as "osc." and might differ from the mean position in any chart by up to 30 degrees. if you know anything about the wild aspect of lilith, the mean position makes no sense.

the evolutionary astrology paradigm, which i practice, begins with pluto as a marker of our soul's deepest wounding at the same time as the soul's deepest intentions. yours would tell me that working with others to create the kind of future you want (11th) is where your wounding and intentions lie, so that's different from your lilith. we usually avoid life arenas symbolised by our plutos even though we want to be there, until we begin healing the wounding.

about the synastry question: whatever's going on for each of those two people is about their own journeys. his eros performance issues might be triggered by her lilith-inspired holding her ground/boundaries, but neither's experience is the other's responsibility. nothing constructive will get done by either on this until each is clear on that.

without looking at the charts, her lilith energy sounds to be serving him by showing him his requirements/expression of preference/desire to get busy whenever he feels like it - eros doesn't undertand shelving passion, or deferring it for later. his eros energy sounds to be serving her by reinforcing how important it is for her to remain connected to her whole being as an act of radical self-love (lilith) - do you know how many women disconnect their emotions from their bodies in order to have enough sex for the men in their lives? many, and it's a group sickness. now, it's rooted in a few things, including the kind of sex most people are having, a kind that's based in how a man's parts and chemistry work in which the woman can seem a rather convenient piece of furniture. (when sex became, according to patriarchal authorities, supposed to be only for procreation, we chose to ignore what a woman is and is about. so many people are waking up now - the book i'm working on is really about the roots and motivations of the patriarchy in trying to shame the feminine.)

the doctor has no means to help him with this. it's in his psychological and emotional history, either overtly or subliminally in the model of masculine/man he was shown when growing up - the religion, the home, popular culture, school - none of us fully escape the conditioning our culture as a whole would rather we have (even if we develop in the opposite direction as rebellion, we haven't escaped it), and only if we decondition can be in the present. whatever conditioning both men & women have taken on about how relationships should work and what a man is and what a woman is, all of us need to accept that in taking it on we're doing our part in being good little members of the social order - we're participating in the cultural agenda. that this agenda is unhealthy and doesn't serve any of its members to assist them in being loving and empowered should only be motivation for individuals to decondition, unplug a little, and figure out what's really happening. if it's that his model of masculinity just doesn't fit into the relationship schema this woman is willing to have, then each has a choice to make. this guy should read everything i have on lilith! and understand that the woman's boundary enforcement has to do with her, and not with him. that might blow his mind, explode his context.

all that said, i don't know these people. i'm making an assumption, yet it's so prevalent i'm willing to take the risk in asserting the above.

if you find the true BML interesting, i'm offering a lilith natal report using that point that delineates lilith in house, sign and aspect, and has upcoming transits and progressions. you can find more info on my home page.

[Aphrodite]

Thank you so much for your comments, Tom. I'm perusing your website now. Straight away, one thing that I found interesting was your comment in Note 6, Lilith page about Eve. I think you are on to something, to the point that perhaps the mean Lilith should be renamed as EVE! I've always thought it was strange that we do not have an astrological point or body for Eve, but this might actually be it. It is a phenominal thought! Wow!

There's a lot of information here about Lilith and I will look into your Lilith report option, as well. This will keep me reading and thinking for a long time. Thanks again for all your work.

Love and light to you,

Aphrodite

[ariesmoon]

Great thought Aphrodite! I'm someone who has been "manageable" all her life - ie Eve, for other people - and I hadn't, until I came across Tom's work, looked at the true BML. Discovering that has been a revelation, primarily that I don't have to be "manageable" for others any more. I can if I choose, but I don't have to be.

Looking at the asteroid and the mean BML never quite triggered anything for me. Having said that they're all in Virgo, and all in the 5th, as are Pluto and Psyche (both conjunct the asteroid) so I'm not meant to ignore her!

Demetra George's "Mysteries of the Dark Moon" has a great chapter on Lilith. And look out for Jonelle Maison's poem about Lilith which is quoted in part in the book - I think it's called "A Hell of a Woman".

[Aphrodite]

Hmmmm.... My Pluto, Psyche and asteroid Lilith are all in Virgo too, but in the 11th hs. Mean BML is a good distance away, but also in Virgo and the 11th hs and in opposition to my Moon and square to Mercury in Gemini, 8th hs. I sometimes swing between passive gullibility and obedient malleability, but I see it - know it - and mentally rebel against it! I guess I'm a real "closet" case - a classic "Southern" girl (USA). This was very pronounced in my youth, but not so much now. I've learned to exercise the "iron fist in the velvet glove" tactic that Libra rising is good for.

The point is: I see and feel "Eve", the archtype of Eve, completing a t-square on my Moon/Mercury square. Recognizing the mean BML point as Eve seems to fill in a blank in my personality in a way that the Lilith archtype never could. It explains much of the nuances of my personality very well. I can identify with this energy, but never could with Lilith.

I never did realize the energy of my true BML until I met my boyfriend, and even now it is elusive. But, since it is situated alone in Libra in the 12th house, I think it was necessary for me to have someone else to bring the energy into the open. We have so much other energy between us that we easily divert away from trouble in this area. Nevertheless, there will surely come a day... Lucky me! There is no one I would feel safer confronting my demons with. That doesn't mean I'm looking forward to it!

I haven't seen anything new from Demetra George in a long time, but haven't been shopping for a while either. It is very exciting to hear about her book. I'm going to go look for it! Thanks for the tip.

Aphrodite

An additional note on Eve: There is no asteroid or point named "Eve". However, there is an asteroid #164 named Eva (a form of Eve meaning life). Mine is in Pisces, 5th hs, conjunct Jupiter/Chiron and trine Neptune and Venus, opposition to Pluto/Lilith/Psyche and square my Sun.

So where is Adam?