vertexy, sans vertex

[tom]

something came to my attention the other day and i've been sitting on it.

i was looking at the chart of a favorite author and saw his nodes at 22/23 virgo/pisces (i think it was 22 virgo 54). something clicked: i've seen those degrees over and over again in personal relationships the last few years. most of the vertexy relationships i've had over the last few years, regardless of the duration (the longest/most involved have had vertex contacts, as well, but those are on this list, too), were with people with significant stuff at 22-23 virgo/pisces.

3 with MC/IC, 2 with nodes, a couple with pluto, one with chiron and one with moon. whether i dated, fell for, lived with or had some intense healing interaction or aha moment with them that helped guide me to my next chapter, they all have 22-23 virgo-pisces.

my vertex is 2 taurus, and the only thing i have in close aspect to these degrees is saturn at 19 gemini (8 nov 1972, 4:16 am, dover, ohio usa earth). but a bunch of squares to saturn 3-4 degrees off i don't think will give such a fated feeling.

i'm curious if you have any ideas about why these degrees might have a vertexy feel on me.

thanks, people!

[ana]

Can you put up the chart so it is easier to surmise?

[tom]

[AquarianEssence]

Your vertex is the contra-antiscion of mean Lilith and close the the Moon's greatest exaltation at 3Taurus. I checked heliocentric positions but didn't see anything that clicked. I wonder if your draconic degrees would show anything. Also, run all the asteroids. I have a feeling you'll find something at 7Aries that will fit. That's the solstice point of 23Virgo. This is my Mercury degree by the way. I also have my ascendant on your 11th and Moon on your mean Lilith.

[ana]

I was thinking maybe those mutable positions are filling the gap in your chart but then there is also nothing Leo/Aquarius I also have Mars/Uranus in 1
Also are you living where you were born? I have Gem rising but moved to where I have Libra rising and meet nothing but Aries planet people here and my friendships here seem to end with niggly illfeelings - a new experience It might be that??

[tom]

ae - i cannot at this juncture fathom your response...but thank you for the thought.
also, haven't been able to find meaning in the mean BML; this chart was leftover from before i used the true.

ana - i'm not living where i was born (ohio), but in california. my relocated ASC in LA is 11 virgo 50. i think though that i've met just as many neptunian people as i did where i used to live (though i understand them differently).

[Aphrodite]

I thought it might be about compensating for lacks in the chart - filling the void. But why that degree? At first, I didn't find anything to explain it. Except you do have that delightful grand trine between Saturn/Pan - Mars/Psyche - Eros. Intense energy! But, you know grand trines can be lazy... What could get you to use it? What makes you do the "work"?

Apollo is @ 22 Virgo 8 - square to Saturn/Pan. To quote Mr Zane: “In a relationship, if one person's Apollo is conjunct the Sun, Moon, Venus, Mars or Ascendant of the other person, the love the Apollo person receives is unbelievable. It is sometimes to the point of worship.”

I'm not sure Apollo is significant for everyone. But pair him up with someone else's node, moon, pluto or chiron (from your 12th house, no less) and add your lovely grand trine to mix... subtle, but complicated (pains & pleasures) and karmic - and seductive/sexy, too!! Oh, and I just noticed Pandora @ 24 Cap. Lots of energy (physical, mental and emotional) all over the place - out in the open, and (also) with layers hidden away in dark, secret places...

[Kim Falconer]

Hi Tom,

This is a very interesting discussion!

My first thought was, as Aquarianessense mentions, check the Midpoints. I did and you have (if the birth time is exact) the Neptune/MC midpoint at 24Virgo08. I use 1.25 degree of orb for mids and this could be relevant as the ruler of Pisces is involved bringing a kind of ascension or epiphany of self-awareness around identity. Still I think it’s more than that. The 90 degree dial puts Me/Ju midpoint at 22 mutable (note these are the rulers of the nodal axis in question). Interesting. The Mo/Ju midpoint is 23 Mutable (expansive adventures via women?)

Next I checked the Arabic Parts. Again, you need a very reliable birth time—and hospital records can be off by 5 to 20 minute—but there is a bit of a bingo for you. Your Arabic Part of Passion is 21 Virgo. I use 1.5 degree of orb for these points.

I was feeling--like AE-- the Draconic chart would show something vivid—they so often do—yet in yours we find the closest contact your Draconic MC (the Midheaven again) at 25 Virgo. In this I would allow 2.5 degrees of orb. The MC contacts can have a strong fated feeling.

There are a few possibilities here. A birth time difference of a few minutes could put the midpoints exact, and the Draco MC exact. There could be a 1000 asteroids right on 22-23 Vi/Pi too! Feel free to check...though when we do this it helps to realise that there are 100's of asteroids on EVERY degree....oh someone check the Sabian symbol too...that would be interesting!

Ana and Aphrodite’s idea of the Vi/Pi axis being a ‘gap’ is valid, though with that repeating degree it seems ‘something’ would be ‘there’.

Oh, Harmonics. I don’t use them but many astrologer do and find them very useful. Your 7th harmonic Mars is 25 Virgo (on your Draco MC!) but now it feels like we are really fishing.

Anyone else have any ideas here?

I’ll keep pondering.

Warm wishes,
Kim

[tom]

kim,
thanks for the thoughts.
the birth time my mom says is correct - she has a tendency to remember such things.
the ntpune/mc midpoint idea makes sense given the feeling incurred, even if not exact. everything these days seems about neptune for me, so i shdn't be surprised. the recent lunar eclipse squared my neptune exactly, too! (conjunct true BML, which i've been working with more consciously since then.)