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Post by gemstar on Sept 23, 2006 16:07:41 GMT
There you go Juliet!!! Free Willy(s)!!!! (Ohhhmmmm......) Free Willy!! (Ohmmmm....) Though it is difficult to detach from our parent's belief system, it is part of our journey to choose what works for YOU the best.....your life experiences are different than your mother's...and though we are often in the habit of believing our parent knows best..... Age and Wisdom do not necessarily walk hand in hand....sometimes Age walks alone. That childlike fear of 'maybe they know something I don't and they know better becuase they are my parent' is very limiting to our psyches....maybe they can not see it, but it is up to us to do so for ourselves.... Does that make sense to you? Companionship may become a higher focus as we age, however, sexuality does not have to diminish...despite hormones decreasing. I believe that if companionship and truly finding a COMPATIBLE mate (in addition to common goals of getting married, having kids and so on-somehow many people stop at this point in the choice department) when we were younger was more emphasized than the physical exhilaration we felt in youth, perhaps more marriages would be happier! Just my opinion......many years later most people figure this out....after much pain and heartache. Personally, I do not want someone who does not want to be with me.....life is short and I would not want to limit myself or anyone else for that matter. It goes both ways....and sometimes we get hurt...and other times, we hurt them by moving on.....this is Life. Many women and a few men are content to never have sex again after a break-up.....perhaps the past sexual experiences were never satisfying to begin with......however, that shouldn't decide the rest of your sexual Life for you. Right? Generations younger than our parents are more open to thinking different and tend to be less accepting of the status-quo I feel. Our parents' generation was taught to NOT question rules and 'what is' so much. They nodded their heads in agreement with society rules and church mores.....few standing up to ask for more in their lives! Somehow...especially the women, many did not learn to create and choose a better life for themselves and stayed stuck (ugh)....my mother too wallowed (and still does) about the 'difficulties' life threw at her 30 years ago.....and STILL brings it up! It is sad to witness....mostly because they are NOT issues which are currently affecting her in any way-and have not for over 20 years! That is what is so bizarre! That is her sad mantra.... Tragedy gives us the opportunity to develop strength. AND character. AND new ways of seeing life and discovering facets of ourselves we find hidden deep inside our Soul. I refuse to let someone else determine my standards. Sometimes it is a 'fake it til you make it' attitude which forces us beyond the 'down-turns' we all feel in varying degrees. The more I reach out and GIVE...especially when I most need love, the better I feel. The more 'outside of myself' I feel and find that the Universe begins to reward me with opportunities and love from the most unexpected sources! No doubt that Life is tough. Some get off a bit easier than others...some people hide things so well we will never know! In the meantime....FREE WILLY whenever you please!! Hugs- GemStar
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Post by Juliet on Sept 23, 2006 19:35:39 GMT
Free Willy!!!! Yippee! My mom is of the first feminist generation, was very liberated and left wing, hippyish, unconventional, divorced in the mid sixties, saw the first of Holland's modern therapists in Amsterdam, where she went by train every week, when there were still hardly any cars here. She still is unconventional, and has never again let a man into her life. Independent to her toes, had a career. Not only independent, she is just plain fearful of intimacy. She was never a mom to detach from easily, do you see what I mean? Her values are basically the same as mine, the separation had to be effectuated on a more essential level then about conventions, style and belief system. I know I have my own life, I know all about it rationally, but this part of her belief system, which also includes 'being in love is only projection and an illusion' and 'being in love is being dependent is childlike' does echo strongly in my fearful Capricorn Moon psyche, which clings to emotional self suffiency for safety. Interesting thing is we have reversed nodes. Hers is Taurus. My DC is conjunct her Sun, My IC conjunct my dad's, who was more of a mother to me. I am so frightened of emotions, just like she was. And I saw her sitting on the sofa all these years, smoking, drinking wine and throwing the I Ching, with her astrology books, and never be vulnerable towards a man again. She went so far as to fall in love with a very gay man for years on end. Talking about unavailability. I do things differently, but the echo is there. Sexuality has grown sooooo much stronger for me with age, while I was not exactly adverse to it when younger. ;D Female sexuality does not decrease at all till very very late in life, did you know that? No, I do not want to be with someone who does not want to be with me, but it seems I have to accept my own ambivalence first. It is huge. Never to have sex again seems about the most frightening thing on earth to me, and it is just that that makes me turn around every time I am attracted. Or even get accidents Really, I mean that. My three biking accidents all happened when there was real possibility of relationship. I broke the relationship with my lover off each time I realized I loved him. And the conscious, rational part of me has no grip on it at all. Two very dear friends have asked me if I am blocking the energy of the Universe. I really don't know. About sex: I used to like it, but be slightly bored with it too. 'Is that all there is?' was my general feeling about it, although my ex (father of my kids, I was with him for 22 years) and I had a good and spicy sexlife. That was the great gift of the relationship with my last lover: I learnt about surrender and Trust with a capital T in bed. Never one dull moment. And I learnt a lot of physical and creative selfconfidence. One more thing: I'd always been attracted to younger men, but always thought it would be too scary for me, did not want it. Guess what? He was ten years younger and that definitely was not the problem. Freedom, unconventionality, sexual intensity and adult commitment, (which with me basically requires learning how to chill, as you put it in the Eclipse thread). They definitely are ALL on my wishlist. (Pluto and Uranus in 7, all personal planets except for Moon in 8). I'm quite a Plutonic Virgo, and that side of me has to be honoured for energy to stream. Thanks Gem, this has been important to me! Free Willy!!!!! Hugs, Juliet xx, very busy liberating herself
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Post by Juliet on Sept 23, 2006 21:04:53 GMT
Addendum: a quote from Care of the Soul, from Thomas Moore.
I know I've created a huge mental split between dependence and independence. A small thing: I ran once after my bf to ask him something. I felt humiliated, and he was sooo happy the icequeen had momentarily descended from her tower, he was beaming. It felt great ten minutes later, brave, but it never became much easier for me. Want to learn AND AND. Haptotherapy helps me, which is all about bonding.
But then again, I need to think of something I find scary (like calling a guy) and do it anyway, train myself. Or do whole new things to reprogram the brain. Must be the Eclipse, the last few hours I realized I want to exorcise my fear by playing on all terrains of life, like I've been doing the last time! Not by delving deep and exhaustive.
Hugs, J
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Post by gemstar on Sept 23, 2006 21:54:03 GMT
Hey Juliet....thanks for sharing! Where in your astrology does this FEAR of intimacy come from? Cappy has an influence yet do you know specifically? Some challenging aspects to the Moon perhaps? Regarding feeling fearful...... Once again, you can always try the 'fake it til you make it' attitude. I bet you can consciously train yourself to be less afraid...just as you have unconsciously trained yourself to have fear with intimacy. (Way back when....) You know, kids are usually pretty fearless until adults unwittingly pour false fears into their minds (perpetuating their own fears into the psyche of their children).....I think the innocence of children is remarkable at times and wish innocence was left more undisturbed by well-meaning parents. Because I have so much water in my chart, I can not escape EMOTIONS. Once I learned to make my peace with these sensitivities, I felt free to express them with abandon. (Not the anger emotion....that one is more controlled if it comes up for me). I feel that there is nothing to lose most of the time (at least not tangible) and much to gain so why hold back? Also, I feel that I would be cheating the world if I kept it all inside...and I would perhaps miss out on the many special moments of Life where intimate emotions elevate a simple moment into a GREAT moment!! Does that make sense at all? Also...Just a quick question. I was curious about your statement re-your independent mother and not being able to detach from someone like that. Usually an independent mother does not create dependent children because they themselves are detached to others as it is.....I guess I didn't understand why you choose to identify with her issues with intimacy when you know they caused her a lot of loneliness (lack of partner) over the years. Why do you feel it difficult to detach from this part of her? (Not her as a whole...just this part). Regarding a woman's desire for sex as she ages...yes, medically it happens to decrease for most women around the age of 50. Unfortunate for us women...it is physically part of the aging process and menopause. I would like to think my mind is stronger than my body....but hormones are pretty powerful influences! We need them to remain balanced! Actually, there is a hormonal response during menopause due to a decrease in production of the two main hormones involved with the reproductive system. As estrogen decreases after menopause, many women feel less inclined sexually. Additionally, levels of testosterone decrease with menopause and this is the main hormone responsible for sex drive. Perhaps this is probably around the age your mother REALLY felt a lack of desire for sex....though I do not subscribe to the theory that a woman's sexuality is over at age 50! Hormone supplements seem to improve those women who feel that their desire has waned too far for comfort!! PS-I would like to read the T. Moore passage but it is too small to read clearly. Would you mind pasting it into a new post please? I think I have that book but I am not sure....I will have to check! Thanks! Big Hugs- GemStar
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Post by 3rdhousenorth on Sept 23, 2006 22:01:32 GMT
Juliet, great quote from Thomas Moore. I need think about this awhile. With my north node in Libra and south node in Aries this whole balance of dependence and independence is so hard for me to get. And I think you mentioned you and your mother's nodes being reversed - same here! My mom so denigrated my need for a little independence and being alone sometimes that astrologers have had a hard time seeing me as so node Aries - I kinda had to go back and claim my strengths before I could balance with Libra. And she swamped me with her Libra so node so much I ran away from relationships. It really confused the hell out of me on this issue. After all, we need to balance our south and north nodes, not abandon what we come in with and force ourselves into our north nodes.
Anyway, thanks again for the quote.
3HN
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Post by 3rdhousenorth on Sept 23, 2006 22:03:44 GMT
Of course didn't I just say that I have Lilith conjoined my south node? Her north node on my Lilith (and south node) in Aries must have been a bad combination!
3HN
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Post by moondance7 on Sept 24, 2006 1:02:26 GMT
Hi, all. I don't doubt the scientific part about hormones, but it certainly hasn't been true for me. I am 59, part of Juliette's mother's '60's/'70's feminists. After playing dead for ten years my drive is much stronger than it ever was. If I had the opportunity now, I'm sure my time allotment would be quite extreme!
The thomas Moore thing is really "heavy" as we used to say, and I'm sure I will reread it thanks everybody.
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Post by gemstar on Sept 24, 2006 1:08:41 GMT
Way to go moondance7!! I do not believe that our sexuality has to die by any predetermiined age....why limit ourselves? My mother will be 65 in a few months...and has her 'granola and feminist' bent as well. Of late...she has sent more sexual jokes than ever in her life...and I say, good for her. (Meaning, perhaps she has rediscovered her sexuality as well!!) Now back to the mantra.....Free WILLYs!!!! PS-I must need glasses...it was too much of an effort to read the passage in that teensy font. Hugs- GemStar
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Post by Juliet on Sept 24, 2006 10:24:43 GMT
Where in your astrology does this FEAR of intimacy come from? Cappy has an influence yet do you know specifically? Some challenging aspects to the Moon perhaps?Moon on the AC exact, square to Libra Venus in 8 and inconjunct to Leo Uranus in 7. Trines to Virgo Mars, Sun in 8. I'll post a link to the chart, that's easier. i23.photobucket.com/albums/b364/astrojuliet/juliet.gifMind you, I'm not an unfeeling, cold or unemotional person, not at all. I wear my emotions on my sleeve, my face never lies, and I'm extraverted. I open up about feelings very easily, and people open up to me. Strange, I just realized especially small children ánd streetpeople seem to be drawn to me. It's far more complex then being unemotional. I do not agree with kids being fearless, they are each born with their own fears. My youngest son was born afraid of water, probably because he had the chord around his neck and thus swallowed quite some water while almost suffocating shortly before being born. He was very much afraid of railways too, from birth. My three kids were very cuddly (I'm very cuddly and physical) but I know of very young babies who are not so cuddly. I was (far too late) born by a caesarian and put in the couveuse, you know, the surrogate womb. My mom was bad at nurturing me. When looking at my baby pictures, I see a happy baby, and two years later I was a toddler with a very frightened face. Everything scared me. My Gemini sister was born into the same unsafe environment and she was a carefree girl! By the time she was born, my mom had learnt how to nurture! By then I'd chosen my dad as my mom and had rejected her. We got along great while I was a schoolkid, teenager, which was nice, because I was detaching from my dad at that time, rather forcefully I might say. He died when I was 18. Kids are born with very distinct characters, and each differs remarkably in impressionabilty. That impressionability seems the key factor in being a fearful kid or not, I've observed many times. Staying innocent is an impossibility, just like living without pain. Of course! But it is beyond that, beyond any conscious grasp. If I had not been able to feel and show emotions, my kids would not have turned out so healthy about dependency and independence. [glow=red,2,300]They[/glow] are perfectly able to juggle the two! It is about showing I need my guy, and it's been even harder the last three years, ever since my best male friend died of suicide. I started rejecting R for real then. Yeah, why do children repeat their parents/family patterns? Why do some abused kids start to abuse their own offspring? I have not ever identified consciously with her choices, it's only the last few months that I'm starting to realize I have partly and unconsciously done so. And even that is relative, I've been in relationships ever since I was sixteen, (except for the last 3 years, so that makes 30 years) and she has been married till she was 36 and never had a relationship again. It's about loyalty, about my own issues, the dependent-independent thing. Dependence is a fact of life, being only independent a blatant lie. There is far more nuance to life then these two extremes. My mom is extremely emotional, and I guess she must have been extremely sexual too. She has a Sun-Pluto conjunction, just like I have. She has repressed all of it because of her beliefs, but mainly (I believe) because of the pain her divorce cost her, which was on her initiative. To put it simplistic, we reject because of need and strong feelings, not because of a lack of feelings. Closeness-distance. I'm very proud of her, have always been so. She was way ahead of her time. She was born in '29. I am not repressing my needs, I fully acknowledge and feel them. I'm struggling with them, that is true! Don't you have inherent shadow patterns you've inherited somehow?? I believe we all do. Estrogen levels decrease less quick when one is curvy. My 35 G cup will keep me going for quite some time. ;D Also, I choose to not believe any medical standardization. I have been 'miraculously' cured of Rheumatoid Arthritis, have been living without asthma medicine for ages -and thriving- while being diagnosed with severe allergic asthma, and still do not need any reading glasses at 49. There is no real problem that needs to be fixed, I guess, not even in the mom department. Day after day I'm learning and accepting loss is unavoidable, and committing to myself. That's all there is to it. Once again: [shadow=red,left,300]Free Willy !!!![/shadow]Love and hugs, Juliet
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Post by gemstar on Sept 24, 2006 12:29:03 GMT
Dear Juliet-That was a lovely reply!! Your children are lucky to have such a caring and nurturing mother!! The nurturing from a parent goes so far in this life....when any of us have it missing or in minor quantities as children ourselves, we are definitely more conscious of it's importance... You mentioned a question about repeating patterns....most definitely and they are ones which I have been conscious of since a young teen. Fortunate or not, being aware of such things at a young age can be a good thing in that you break patterns much earlier than most. The difficult part seems to be that your illusions of security and respect for your parent seem to be just that...illusions. The next part is learning to fill the void where that poor behavior once served. As a young adult, I really wanted to find a book on 'How to say things better'. Both of my parents are sharp-tongued, often rude, lack reasonable boundaries and overall, very disrespectful to others who do not share their views etc....So, I began to try and fill those empty slots where I banished those 'instant disrespectful replies' and learn new ways to say things. That might sound trivial to some....but anyone who has grown up in a home where disrespect of the verbal kind is rampant will understand. It becomes part of your response-system and until you are aware of this fact, you tend to treat others the same way because it seems normal! NORMAL is relative to how you grew up until you decide on your own that changes are in order to better reflect your own IMPROVED sense of normal.....not the 'normal' as defined by our parents. These days, I cringe when my mother whips one of those heartless responses out.....and I freeze my words. My defense mechanism stops me and long ago, I learned not to lower myself to that level. I used to try and describe how her words were hurtful to me and that I felt they were disrespectful in general....that didn't work! Hee-hee.....so, I now pretty much get off the phone quicker and spend less time in the presence of such disrespect. (Among other ugly behaviors). With regard to children, I wonder how the development of fears comes into being. Yes....there are some who are innately afraid but most as young tots do not seem to be afraid. As life happens...falls, hurts etc....then the fears begin and much depends on the parents reaction as well. Do you ever watch a kid fall, and is not particularly hurt....doesn't cry and looks around til she/he finds their parent...and then lets out a wail?? Pavlov at times!! Learned reactions to lesser pains and fears is what I was meaning above in my earlier post. SUCH i nfluence our parents have on us and often is....a huge web to untangle! Showing emotions is important but that is only a part of intimacy. It is often difficult to gleam a proper idea when posting on these forums as I was replying to your post way above. You stated that you were afraid of emotions.....but in your second reply, it seems you are not. Perhaps it is the combination with intimacy and relationships where the wall begins for you. You are such an open and loving person, it is difficult to imagine you being afraid to openly share this with your partners. But of course, if you have been in continual partnerships for many years...there has been little time for yourself and YOU. I believe it is important to keep your shine bright as possible.....and to take the time out do polish it up when Life dulls or tarnishes our Spirits....being your own little shining star in this big world is important!! And as far as medicine is concerned....genetics...things unexplained.....there is so much modern medicine has yet to discover. Miracles happen every day.....and we try our best to not fit in the 'conventional box' of life!! FREE WILLY! I like this FREE WILLY! mantra.....FREE WILLY!! It is liberating in some way!! Like a FREE ME!! attitude... Thanks again for your thoughts Juliet...I enjoyed reading them! BIG HUGS- GemStar PS-My apologies for straying off topic of sorts! Sometimes these threads lead us to new discoveries of others and their inner selves....It is so wonderful and appreciated! Everyone learns I think.....so hope you all didn't mind!
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Post by Juliet on Sept 25, 2006 10:38:39 GMT
Dear Gem,
Wrote a long long reply and then thought of something else, copied, and accidentally copied something else over it and then.... lost! Thanks for appreciating my post. And indeed, excuses to you, Moondance, for getting off-topic!!
It does not sound trivial at all, you breaking away from destructive communication patterns. You apparently did a good job! How do you handle anger and agression now? Is that still an issue for you? Would you be willing to send me your data, please??
I'm sure I'm making thousand mistakes as a mom, and that's okay. I was very conscious of my parents shortcomings at an early age too. But then what? Awareness was not all for me. As an Earth sign I've needed to feel and process feelings in the body, only that is healing for me. I grasped a lot as a child intellectually and intuitively, but the emotional and REAL maturity to deal with them totally lacked.
I cannot discount people for their mistakes, I really can't. I want to be loved too, with small and big and huge mistakes and all. Yesterday we had a family gathering (Holland is a small country, and families generally meet often, which I love, my family is a source of joy for me these days) because of my nieces birthday, and I was so moved by my mom where once I would have been irritated. By her grand gestures, by her tic of always buying one shoesize too small 'They were on sale, you know...' Quirks and mistakes are wellcome!
I love my kids dearly, but they can irritate the **** out of me sometimes! And it is all Love!
My parents luckily were prepared to listen to us. They were accountable, although I would have loved to have my dad around a little while longer to talk with him about things I only understood much later!
I believe kids are born with universal fears that have to do with survival. And what do you think about birth? That is really something! Kids live in the moment yes, and they can switch from total misery to total bliss within seconds. One part of parenting is teaching children how to deal with frustration, and most people are so terrified of pain or anger, so do not express them at all or express them destructively. Excessive anger is nasty, and excessive harmony is equally stifling and unhealthy!
Yes, it's the combination of intimacy and relationships where the walls go up. With new tenderness and deep passion came scary feelings of vulnerability. I've only just (at 43, with/after the midlife) reached a depth of feeling I did not know before, did not have an inkling of. And I see it all around me: by now we all know one does not die of loss, then why are people so frightened to start relationships??
This suddenly reminds of my little girl, when she was 2. My ex and our two eldest had been on an skiing vacation for a week, and when we returned home and she saw us, she started laughing and crying all at the same time, and fled to a corner of the hallway. Momentarily it was too much for her to handle, it took time. I am a lot like that two year old toddler.
My body needs to learn to trust that surrender to my guy does not mean surrendering the Self, maybe. I really don't know. I feel at peace about it now. Now as in at this very moment.
Continuous partnership does not exclude developing of the Self, I believe, as little as working or parenting or whatever would do. These are all parts of Self, and I do not agree with the habit of seeing all these things as separate. When I truely give a hundred % of myself to another, when I am in the moment, I give to myself too by connecting in to the Life Force! For me that was easy with my kids, but I see women around me who found it hard to give of themselves to their kids, and not hard at all with a guy. Or to their work, but not to their partner. All variations exist!
Partnership is but a part of life, not an all encompassing thing, however alluring and important it seems when not in one! Also, I always had my own friends and things and work, I had to honour Uranus in 7!
A lot fell in place while writing all this. Thanks! Could it be Pluto applying to a trine with natal Pluto?? The Eclipse? Or all of these?
Free Willy! Love and hugs, Juliet
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