8th and 12th houses in synastry

[BodaciousBabe]

Dear All,

Would you describe the 12th house as the same as the eighth house, but at a collective level?

In synastry what might the following mean?

My Sun and Venus in his 12th house?
My Eros/Chrion conjunction in his eighth house?
His Pluto/Cupid in my 12th house, conjunct my Neptune/Vesta/Ascenedent?
His Moon in my 8th house?

I am receiving a reading from Kim soon, but I am trying to get a handle on the 12th house (collective) verses the 8th house (personal.) With an eighth house Sun and Mercury, I undestand that house pretty well.

And I read recently that Vesta in the 12th meant I was addicted to hospitals. That would be weird except that I have have had eight surgeries in 16 years. THere's GOT to be a more positive spin on that!

Thanks,
BodaciousBabe

[Kim Falconer]

Hello BB,

This is a great question. When it comes to the element of Water, it is difficult to make distinctions. Everything is so blurry and difues!

The 4th, 8th and 12th houses are all WATER house and in that sense do share some common ground.

They represent areas of psychic, intuitive, sensitive vulnerability. They are areas of life, both inner and outer, that affect us emotionally. They penetrate, permeate…imbibe us!

Briefly:

The fourth house is PERSONAL in its emotional/psychic content. Me plus me! It is home, family, roots, emotional stability, domestic affairs, inheritance, anything that surrounds and protects. The IC is often the “I don’t see” in the sense of our denial of emotions, shadow material and what we hide from others because it feels so vulnerable. The is the Moon/Cancer’s house!

The eighth house is SOCIAL in its emotional/psychic content. Me plus YOU! It is about shared intimacy, shared power, shared emotions. It’s sex, death and taxes! All areas of life where we give something up with no guarantees! We take a risk here and merge our energy without knowing what will happen. This house is more of the nature of Eros than any other.

The twelfth house is Trans-personal in its emotional/psychic content. Me plus the Collective. It is the house of drawn shades, the deepest well of the unconscious, because it touches the roots of archetypal images and all things that move in the depths of the collective. This lake has no bottom.
Energy her is, at least at first, beyond our understanding. Things get confused, the fog rolls in and we lose our boundaries. It is the unknown and the unknowable as far as consciousness is concerned.

By synastry, another person’s planets in the 8th house may stimulate feelings of erotic desires, issues of power, trust and risk. Remember, people are like permanent transits. His Moon in your 8th is like having the Moon transiting the 8th house, all the time you are together.

Moods fluctuate, emotions brood and boil, everything seems flooded with feelings. It is hard to be clear or rational, the erotic energy is so strong. He may ultimately help you get in touch with your social values and what risks you are willing or able to take. He will certainly test your use of power.

Your Eros/Chiron in his 8th also awakens his emotive and psychic 8th house content, yet now it seems even more erotic, more yearning for merging, risk and the fires of transformation. Chiron says there is something to be learned, something to garner from the intensity (and perhaps adventurous or outrageous) nature of the situation. It is, for him, like having Eros/Chiron transiting this house ALL THE TIME!

Your Sun/Venus in his 12th awakens that nebulous sense of the unknown, mysterious, mystical, alluring, frightening. The uniqueness that is you (Sun) and the vivaciousness (Venus) turns the light on in the dark places of his soul.

This is both enchanting and terrifying, brilliant and awful…We long for someone to enter our dark corners yet it creates great apprehension when they do! It seems the other knows too much, or knows us better than we know ourselves.

It can awaken spiritual insights and realizations…and epiphany of understanding as well as confusion, mistrust and apprehension. I know of no greater paradox than the Sun in the 12th, natal or synastry.

Pluto in the 12th is dear to my heart, if such a thing is possible. My entire family going back generations has this!

Pluto /Cupido in the 12 (on Vesta, Neptune and Ascendant) is going to activate all those diffuse feelings of the unknown with a sense of primordial power. I think in this case the Pluto energy dominates the cheeky playfulness of Cupido, though it may be there at times. It can feel like he plumbs your depths, knows your soul, your longing your desires in ways that you can not articulate. It feels like he has the power to shape or form you nebulous longings and speak them in ways you never could. It is, like any 12th house contact, both fascinating and terrifying all at once.

It may activate your desires (each of you) to work in a collective way…but I think that is just our human way of coping with such immense forces.
Do you see what I mean?

Where did you read that bit about Vesta and hospitals? That’s interesting, though I don’t think addiction is the right word. I will look into this more.

Thanks for bringing up the water houses in Synastry. They bring such mixed feelings, both those of being understood on a psychic, intimate level and also fears of being possessed, manipulated or even as Arroyo has said “emotionally en-slaved!”<br>
Can anyone else comment here?

Warmly,
Kim

[Kim Falconer]

Dr. Z has some insightful and often quite funny ;D ways of imparting information. Here is a delightful article on the 12th house!

www.thezodiac.com/12thhouse.htm

See what you think.

Warmly,
Kim

[BodaciousBabe]

Dear LunarScorp and Kim,

Wow, you both are amazingly right on. I just told a friend yesterday that I thought one reason I had needed so much surgery (all in the same physical area!) was so I could escape and rest and dream while I was recovering. I also told her I was through with that way of living and was making reverie and meditation a regular part of my daily life now.

In this hyper yang culture, being a 4th, 8th, 12th house person is very much like being a fish out of water. But I guess the point is to put the fish back in the water....

Thanks much again!
Bodaciousbabe

[Kim Falconer]

Hello BB,

Yes! The fish needs to find clear pools and deep lakes in which to swim free.

I also feel you have moved past that hospital/surgery/recovery cycle and on to different forms of self-expression.

Another resource for elucidating the houses is a book by Howard Sasportas called, The 12 Houses. It is a must for any serious student!

He said of the 12th house, “…While not FULLY LOSING our own personal identity or sense of our own unique individuality, we need to experience, acknowledge, honour, and connect to, that part of us which is universal and unbounded. Ultimately, the trick is to swim in the waters of the 12th house without drowning in it.”<br>
I think the connections to surgery (8th) and hospitalization (12th) has much to do with your Sun in Gemini in the 8th house trine Neptune/Vesta in the 12th. There is a solar need to merge with the collective. Neptune draws you into the depths like a mermaid chanting from the deep.

In the hospital, you experience a kind of unity with the collective. The distinction of your individuality fades and you become one with a greater force. It was a chance to retreat, and perhaps renew. Vesta's need for ritual may have been part of it too. The 8th house Sun is not afraid of the pain or risk…it needs to experience that as well.

Yet now I do feel that part of your life is over, particularly as Pluto moves away from its long term opposition to your natal Sun. The mermaid will still call you to the depths, though now you are finding new ways “to swim in the waters without drowning.”<br>
Warm wishes,
Kim

[chrissymgreen]

dear bodacious babe,

i dont know if youve seen this before, but i found some good info on vesta for you:

"Vesta's placement in the horoscope shows where and how we can be dedicated, where we can focus our energies to the greatest effect. But it also shows where, periodically, we have to withdraw and 'recharge our batteries.' If we don't, we will become drained, and even sick.

Vesta also has an effect on our sexuality, but it is not the raw, animal drive of Mars or Pluto. It is more of a reasoned choice, which is in tune with Vesta's affinity with the sign of Virgo.

Lenore Cantor told the following story in a lecture some years back. She was going to visit the late Charles Emerson and she got stuck between floors in his elevator. While she was waiting for the repair crew to arrive, Charles shouted down the elevator shaft: 'Lenore, where's your Vesta?'

Vesta also rules small, confined places."

"Vesta in the 12th House: This is the house of withdrawal. Paradoxically, you have to withdraw from withdrawing! Don't spend a long time on a religious retreat, for instance, or in a hospital. Just being in a place of restriction or withdrawal will tend to drain you."

is your vesta in aspect with your neptune and ascendant? you did say they were all 3 in your 12th. if they are, here's some more info for you:

"Vesta Aspecting Neptune: Neptune rules dreams and imagination. The harmonious aspects (conjunction, sextile and trine) tend to increase the ability to focus the imagination. This can be a very good placement for both artists and scientists, since it makes visualization of the final product easier. The stressful aspects (square and opposition) can make concentration on ordinary tasks more difficult. Contrast this with the Uranus/Vesta aspects. Uranus and Neptune both loathe anything ordinary, but whereas Uranus rebels, Neptune simply takes your mind away to daydream land."

"Vesta Aspecting the Ascendant: The harmonious aspects (conjunction, sextile and trine) make it easier to focus in general (particularly the conjunction). The opposition aspect could indicate focus on someone else (particularly a partner). It could also indicate that one focuses better when there is someone else around. The square aspect could show difficulties with partners over who does what work. Partners could also interfere with work and focus, but with the square, there could be difficulty focusing even without a partner because the things you want to focus on (shown by the sign where you have Vesta) clash with the type of person you are (shown by the sign on the Ascendant)."

my partner's sun falls in my 12th house, like yours does in your friend's chart. i have done a little research on this and come up with a few blurbs from here and there:

Sun in partner’s 12th house - With this placement, it may be very difficult for the twelfth house person to see the Sun person as he or she really is. There is some potential for the twelfth house person to over idealize, or to have unrealistic expectations of the Sun person, and to become disappointed as a result. There is also a slight potential for the Sun person to take advantage, consciously or not, of the twelfth house person, or to engage in some mild deception. Sometimes, the twelfth house person's intuitive understanding of the relationship is more on-target than a purely rational analysis.

X’s Sun in Y's Twelfth House.
Y may see X as someone who prefers seclusion to interacting vigorously with the outer world. Or X’s goals and direction may be so subtle that Y doesn’t understand them. Or Y could see X as his/her spiritual guide and not be sure why. Y might also perceive X as a behind-the- scenes kind of person, capable of directing but not in an obvious way—possibly manipulating. If Y feels manipulated, or if there’s anything unclear about X’s goals and direction, Y might want to probe into personal motivations together. As matters clarify, it will strengthen the bond between both partners.

Sun in Partner's 12th House
This combination indicates that you share a karmic link. You have a mutual interest in psychic or occult matters, and you may even share a telepathic connection. Your influence on each other is largely determined by whether the Sun in the Sun person's natal chart is well-aspected, as well as the balance of "positive" and "negative" contacts in the relationship. If the Sun is well-aspected, and if a more harmonious comparison, the Sun person can help the 12th house person explore and discover the house person's deepest unconscious motivations. The 12th house person, in turn, can share intuitive impressions and spiritual insights with the Sun person. If a more difficult comparison (or if the Sun person's Sun is heavily afflicted natally), the Sun person may confuse the 12th house person and may seem unreliable. In such a case, there may be dark secrets between you, and maybe even outright deception.

honestly, the way i experience this is that i perceive him to be very piscean at times. watery, dreamy, a little unreliable. i don't mind this so much though since my sun is in pisces.


hope this helps!



sincerely,
chrissy

[BodaciousBabe]

Dear Kim and Chrissy,

Thank you both for your responses. They both spoke to me at a time in my life when I am feeling quite vulnerable, but up for the challange at the same time! It must have something to do with the fact that my Chiron return is only a year and a half away and I think I'm feeling its effects already!

Blessings,
BodaciousBabe