Can non radical chart be read?

[AquarianEssence]

I cast a chart for the question, "Is there something going on behind the scenes with my sons (when at their dad's house) that I need to know about?" Right off the bat, I have a problem, The chart is not radical but describes the question well. Moon rules the hour and is in the house of secrets. So my question is, how do we handle a non radical chart? What does that mean exactly. I know some charts are still read even when not radical. What are the rules there?
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Late degree rising says it has gone on for a long time or gone quite far. Moon has crossed over both Sun and Saturn, representing the father.

If the chart can be read the last aspect of the Moon is trine Pluto. Does trine mean yes? Moon is almost exact opposite Neptune who is now at the midpoint of their dad's Jupiter/Sun. Moon has just triggered the fixed t-square in his chart involving Pluto. 29 on the 12th...all of this has me scared again. I keep having these thoughts that something has been going on. This new moon is contra-antiscion my natal Moon, that may be why its coming up again now.

[AquarianEssence]

Sorry this chart is so small. I don't know how to get photobucket pictures to be bigger when I bring them in from paint. The chart was cast for today at 8:40 am EDT, Kalamazoo, Michigan.

[Juliet]

Dear Aqua, I don't see any Yes'es in this chart at all!
The chart is indeed not radical, but only slightly too late, so I'll interprete it anyway. I do not turn the chart, since this is about your worries!

Something practical first: maybe you could try to just upload from the Windows My Images directory thumbnails, I do that and the size is always good.
Also, please, could you please leave out the asteroids, any horary chart is more clear without them. One can sometimes use them for illustrative purposes...

This is what I see: You are Sun in twelve and in own sign.
Your son and his dad are both represented by Jupiter, a good sign in itself about their relationship. Your son is obviously close to his dad.
Son is cusp 5, his dad 4th from 5, cusp 8th. Everything seems fine between them.

Your ruler Sun will square this ruler, so I see conflicts for you with both, but no reason for the worries you have.
Your co-ruler Moon is almost opposite Neptune, the modern ruler of your ex, and this confirms a conflict with him.

Also, always take into account any planets in the first, since they tell something about you. Mars is in 1, which basically could mean you are in combat-mode!
Mars is ruler of 4 and 9.
Could be the source for your strong feelings is inside your own home, your emotions, or your dad.

This theme seems further accentuated when we see Pluto close to cusp 5, your son. Again, this is ruler of your fourth.

There is something else, non-astrological I'd like to say... When people divorce, it is always very difficult to accept the different values and mores in the different homes. My ex could make drama's about the kids eating Greek souvlaki ("You only feed them junk food!"with lots of tomatoes and white cabbage and onions) or about me being away for a night and really made a big deal out of it. Or I could make opera out of something relatively small just to devalue his worth as a dad.
These worries are often sticks to beat the dog with, become symbols of the divorce and the conflict that lead to it.

Let go of how your ex handles your son, even though you do not agree with him at all, and vice versa. Don't let him interfere with your business as well.
You seem to have a conflict with your son, and it sounds like one of the oldest teenage-conflict ever. Kids of divorced parents have the 'extra power' of being able to manipulate the parents with the exes, a 'weapon' they will not hesitate to use!

All my best!
Juliet

[AquarianEssence]

Thank you for your reply, Juliet. I'm confused though. I am far from combatant with my ex. When he first moved out I tried to have him to dinner each night and to see the kids. He refused. He claimed he couldn't take them for a visit because he was staying at my son's and then at his parents, so I went to my folks for the weekend so he would come here. And of course he emptied the file cabinet of all titles, etc, by no skin off my nose. Mars is sextile Jupiter, just completed semisex with Sun and is 2* trine my Cap Mars. I don't see this as combative mode.

Mars could also be seen as the son, and quite often is. Since he resides with me this fits. He is quindicile Neptune, ruler of 8th. What is the obsession? And what's with all the secrets and mysteries with 26* being repeated? And couldn't Pluto in the 12 of the 5 mean he is denying his real power?

You say everything is fine between them but Jupiter is square Neptune. Is that good? Point of father is 17Leo, that is my ascendant and conjunct this moon sep 1 degree. What does that mean? My son has put on at least 2 inches in his waist and comes home with at least 5# extra each week. How is that fine? He is far beyond chubby now with at least 55 pounds to loose. This isn't about kinds of foods. It's about 3 children that are expanding themselves to protect or cushion. The only one that has tapered off and not still gaining is the one that said he doesn't to live there. If the younger one would be so much happier there why is he putting on weight each time he is there?

No, this is not normal teenage behavior for my family. I have 7 children, half are adults. This is the first child that has ever talked this way to me. The rebellion started much before puberty and only started after the separation so it is clearly connected to that. The words he says to me, presuming to know my finances, law etc, can only be coming from his dad. None of my children had any health problems, but the adult children have developed several only since the divorce. My ex wasn't particularly close with any of our sons before the divorce and I encourage their relationship. He never has taken any of the kids to a soccor game, anything. Only critisism or silence, even when my oldest at 14 years old made the dean's list at college.

Sun is quite aways from opposing Neptune but will first conjunct Saturn, the traditional father then there will be a t-square with Taurus the way out. Sounds like money to me. The Taurus MC is exact square to his dad's Sun and Moon disposits Venus, again showing the complaint that some of his money comes to me. Taurus is 3rd of the 8th so it is what he is saying to his child (Venus in 5th of 8th). Venus disposits the part of mother. But notice Jupiter is trine Venus.

The last aspect is trine Pluto which you point out is ruler of 4th and make the point it is close to the 5th? How is that important? I see that Jupiter is semisquare Pluto. What does this mean? Neither Mars or Moon are having a problem with the ruler of 5 but both have a problem with ruler of 8, Neptune.

I'm sorry, I'm even more convinced that something is beyond normal divorced child syndrome. I grew up in the most hostile divorce environment possible. I know what that is like and recognize what is coming from that. An no, there is nothing like my dad here, my mom was the bitter one.

[Juliet]

Well, if you are convinced, please take immediate action! I did not mean at all to downplay your worries, but I still do not see grave problems in the chart, really.
Combat mode about Mars in 1 was a joke, I'm sorry about that! Planets in the first house become co-rulers of the AC=you.

I read this chart the way I'm used to, and I do not use Saturn as the traditional father ruler, or Mars for sons, I only look at cusps. I don't use too much different aspects, but only look at the rulers of the people in question.

Also, I did not mention my own example to discuss types of foods at all, just to illustrate the mechanism. I did not say your son would be much happier with his dad, not at all!
Mars and Pluto as rulers of 4 could point to any parent, any emotional pain, your home.

But the most important is your apparent conviction there is something going on. So you do not need horary charts at all. maybe that is why the AC was too late!! I hope everything works out for the best, Aqua!
Juliet

[AquarianEssence]

Thanks. I don't know what action I can take without knowing what is going on and/or my son's being willing to tell me.

As far as radical goes, I was referring to the Moon ruling the hour and not connected to the degree and sign rising. Transpluto is at that degree though, along with my asteroids Atropos, Daedalus and Lie.

I didn't explain the reason for this question as I just initially wanted answers to those questions. I am dealing with things way beyond normal for even a hostile divorce and as time goes on (its been 8 years) it only seems to get worse. Before the divorce all of my children were close to me and never were openly defiant. All of us had our part in the family and was expected to fulfill that role. My husband had very little involvement in their lives. He came home from work and either read, whatched tv or slept. The only thing he ever did with or for the boys was hunt when they were old enough. If they needed his help with anything he would growl, literally. Sometimes he did help though. Before the divorce was final which took two years as he was trying to claim I was an unfit mother, he wouldn't even see them mid week as the FOC recommended, or take them for any spring or summer break time. Once it was "law" he started doing some of it but never took the 3 summer weeks until my younger son demanded to see the divorce visitation schedule and he read it. Then he started letting them come but he takes his vacation time, as always in money rather than time. He has been increasingly complaining to the boys all his money goes to me. He makes somewhere between 20-25 an hour. We're supposed to exchange W2 info but he refuses so I'm not sure. They can't take more that 1/3 and I gave him $40,000. He has bought a new tractor, boat..... more than I ever could so I know he isn't hurting. I still have the same coming in we did 10 years ago caring for the same number of people and am able to do more for my children now than when he was here, probably because I have much more say on where the money goes.

Why is atropos lie and daedalus rising? Because as soon as I asked him to move out he moved into our son's place rather than his parent's. He told all three of my adult children that I had made up a story that he tried to choke me and had put a personal protection order out on him. So they needed to be with him whenever he came to get the boys to protect him from any more of my lies. Now, it is true he tried to choke me 2 years before we split among other things. But I never called the police because I knew my children would be drug into it. When my older boy accused me of this I told him if it was true his dad could prove it by showing him a legal PPO but he wouldn't even ask him. My two youngest had witnessed it and tried to tell him but he said I made them say that. The one who doesn't seem to want to live with his dad remembers it. The younger was only 3 and I don't think he recalls. But that is the past. I just told him if I ever felt threatened again I would call the police. Since he moved out my car has been trashed half a dozen times. The one time I called the police, he said it wasn't random vandelism, it was directed at me. If it's a car I drive, the driver's door is kicked in. If I the major passenger, then that door is kicked. Nothing like this ever happened before our separation. I also had calls when I shut off caller ID to save money and he was the only one who knew. Stupid me, I called and told him I was turning it back on (phone was still in his name) because of these calls, but of course, they immediately quit. I'm a little slow sometimes, at figuring things out. I think he was hoping to scare me back into his arms.

This question is promted by the escalation of my son's hostility and insistance he move in to his dad's even though his dad won't do anything to work with me to determine what's best. He just keeps telling him he can't afford money to go to court and that he'll have to get me to say it's ok. It never has to be a court battle, that's just been his way.

Many times over the last years I am flooded with feelings that something else, more damaging is going on. It could just be that the only way they get approval from their dad is by being hostile to me but I had such a good relationship with all of them before. I rarely hear anything from 2 sons, 2 won't have anything what so ever to do with me. When my 21 year old pulls in my drive with his dad when picking up his siblings, if I'm outside he puts his hand up to hide his face and turns his body away. That is beyond weird.


So Juliet, then are you saying Moon's last aspect trine to Pluto means no? When does trine mean yes and mean no? I though square or opposition meant no.

[Juliet]

Hi Aqua!
I'm so sorry about everything you had to live through. I know the score, been there, done that, but since he has a new family, all his anger goes to his new wife.
I wanted to reply to your last post, and stared at it a long time, but I was emotionally and rationally fully blocked. What are you frightened about? Abuse? I know these blaming techniques (about finances) your ex apparently uses too, they are a bummer.
I just ignore them. My ex still uses money to punish me.

You mentioned the last aspect of the Moon, the trine to Pluto. Moon represents you, but also the course of events around the matter of the question. A last aspect is never THE answer, that (yes or no in this instance) can only be found in 'clean' applying aspects of rulers, so no frustration or prohibition, whatever.

Horary gives a very graphic image of the answer, but is not an event chart. Your question was ' is there something to worry about?'. For a YES we would want a ' clean' applying opposition or square between your son and his dad for a YES, but there is none. Plus they are both represented by a benificial planet, Jupiter.
I only look at the traditional rulers, since I believe the simpler the better and the clearer. I always get answers, (never infallibe of course) and they are usually far more clearcut then when one uses modern rulers!
If Neptune would be an apt planet to be your ex (does he drink f.i.?) there is a wide square, but it will take ages to perfect and will be frustrated and prohibited tens of times before that.

I also do not use general significators, such as Venus for women, or Mars for young men. It just does not work for me. One can tell certain things about the rulers found though. F.i. if one has a question about a guy and finds Mars as the 7th cusp ruler in Gemini, it could mean he has a Mercurial temperament. I do not have to tell you of course.
Furthermnore, I use Regiomontaus houses and Ptolemeic aspects.

If one uses too much, things get very complicated (a myriad of choices) and one can always find a yes or no, or anything we want to see in our anguish and pain, and we all know life does not work that way.

There is conflict in this chart though, that's beyond any doubt. You and the Moon (both you and the course of events) are both in your sons 8th, your 12th. Saturn is there too, and it could represent your husband or your ex, since Saturn rules your 7th.
To make things more complicated, Saturn is also ruler of intercepted Cap in 5. Your other sons??
I don't know what that means, do you?

Your strong ruler Sun (in own sign) will apply unhindered to a square with your son: conflict, which already is there. The matter will probably end with transformation, that Moon Pluto trine, a blessing in disguise.
Formally Moon is VOC already, so nothing much will really happen.
Breathe.

For when you are in the mood:
www.skyscript.co.uk/horary_intro.html
She explains everything about significators and the meaning of the Moon much better then I am able to do now.
I wish you lots of courage, love and strength, Juliet


PS: You know, Aqua, practice teaches that everyone applies his or own preferred set of rules, since horary as natal is also about intuition. I prefer Regio, the traditional system. But others prefer Placidus, so it works for them!

[AquarianEssence]

Thank you so much, Juliet. I understand much better now. Something has been telling me to use Reg houses and I think you're right. Maybe I shouldn't have even tried to read it other than gleaning information with the void Moon. I wasn't thinking it was void with opposition to Neptune and trine to Pluto. Do most other people omit the outer planets? So it really isn't radical at all?

The Capricorn interception is real interesting since my ex has Mercury there hidden away in the 12th. Saturn is more his planet than Uranus athough he pulls out all the stops in using him occasionally. He even does a Saturn trade, concrete. Jupiter also rules my natal 5th. Here it is speaking of his hopes or friends. I'm not sure about Saturn and Sun being in the 8th of the 5th. It looks like 8th as house of sharing with mom and dad together but mom has moved on. The square between Jupiter and Moon is long over. But the problem between Jupiter Sun and Saturn is just beginning. Even after our conflict is past he still has the issue between Jupiter and Saturn. Now is this an internal conflict or between Saturn authority figure, dad and him? This time last year we went through the same thing and it fizzeled out as his dad made no move to work with me. I suspect the same will happen but the real problem will remain. It's feeling like a lack of boundaries, Saturn is boundaries and limits. That's not a good thing. I'll think about this some more as I ponder a chart for a better question; What is behind the problem with my children at 8:37? This chart has the signs intercepted that ruled two houses yesterday and 0Cap is on the 5th. The chart is clearly radical with Mars ruling hour but still has a late degree.

Thank you again.

[Juliet]

By giving another late degree, I believe the Universe is telling you something, Aqua!

[AquarianEssence]

So the universe is telling me it's too late, there is nothing I can do, I just have to let them all go? If I have done something to deserve this how can I ever learn unless I am told what I have done? I know what you're saying. But if it's otherwise radical, didn't even Lily read the chart? Could the late degree also mean that I didn't create it and there isn't anything I can do to stop it? Maybe I'm grasping at straws. At least the hr planet was in harmony.

Thank you for your generosity.
Connie

[Juliet]

Oh, Connie, I did not mean it that way! Maybe you should give horary a rest in this matter and look for human support close to you!

Let them all go? Why?
We're on different wavelenghts now: you're convinced something very bad is going on, and I still not see disaster in this chart, not at all! I acknowledge you must be in a lot of pain about your sons though!!
I wish you lots of love, Juliet

[blueorchids]

Sorry for your heartache AquE. It sounds intense but I just wanted to add and I hope it does not sound banal. But late ascendant can also mean --- things are fine, situation normal...okay, not to worry. At any rate we are simply reading the horary and you are living it.

[AquarianEssence]

No, he loves to go to court if he think he can hurt me. He's using no money for a court battle as his excuse for not moving Nathaniel in. The boys were burned out badly with councelors because that was one of the tools my ex used during the divorce. He hired a hatchet man to slander me without ever talking to me, then my lawyer said they needed to go to a councelor well respected by the court to take his power away. The boys were a pawn for his vendeta. It was awful. I did try to initiate counceling last year when he was saying he wanted to live there but they insisted on a meeting with the parents and the ex never went so it ended before it began. I know what you're saying, thanks. It's just that I have 4 grandkids I don't even know. I've seen a couple of them shortly but they don't have a grandma.

This last chart really is talking to me though. In both charts I kept hearing they are seeing you as both mother and father, with some projection. Moon in the last chart has a nice sextile with Jupiter and Venus, Sun with Saturn term and face conjunct Saturn that has Venus term, Jupiter face.

Thanks again

[AquarianEssence]

What a wonderful gift, teaching them to make baklava. We have so called joint custody but mine is there primary home. They go there 3 weekends a month and a few hours on Wed. We have a support order based on the normal formula according to income. I could have it re-adjusted since my income has been cut, but I haven't.

Believe me, I know those memories. My mom had my brother steal from my dad, searching through their dressers looking for evidence when she was struggling to get us back. It seems even thought I'm not willing to repeat my parents karma (divorce was not even in my vocabulary until after 25 years) my ex decided to play the role of my mother and force me into a repeat. So now I'm forced to try and find appropriate responses to erase this karma so my children won't be forced to repeat it. The weapon my dad and grandma used against my mom was her lack of money (lost our home) and sexual prefrence (lesbian for 13 years). So the universe sends me homeschooling (minority choice) and a husband with a criminal record involving sex. Can you tell Lilith is rather prominant in my chart?

I guess I still have the question for the future as to when Lilly would read a late degree chart because I know he did sometimes. I cast a chart for a completely different question last night and it also had 28 rising. It could be just telling me I already know the answer. But if so, couldn't the chart support that and give more information?

[AquarianEssence]

No, the boys live here although we officially have joint custody. I still do all the work of parenting. He has them on 3 weekends a month and a few hours on Wednesdays. That's what the kids told Friend of the court they wanted. And there is a support order based on his income a couple years back. I can't figure out if he really doesn't want him to live there so he's making up that he'd have to have a bunch of money to take me to court or if he knows the court wouldn't give him that if I objected. Anything we agreed to could be written into the order so all he'd have to do is work with me for a solution. He sees everything as a battle and I won't play. But on the otherhand I won't do something I don't believe is in their best interest just because my son says he wants it. The hardest part of being a parent is being the tough guy. It would be much easier on me emotionally to tell my sons, ok, go. But I don't see any clue that would be best for him.

You know, I didn't even allow the word "divorce" into my vocabulary because of all the years of my mom's bitterness and the court battles I lived through. But after so many years of my ex saying, "if you don't like it, divorce me," I finally decided, maybe I could. And that family karma has forced it's way into my life against my will. My ex is my mother and father, and her mother. History repeats itself in some form wether we want it or not, if the last generation didn't resolve it. So it's been given to me. I just pray I am given the key lock the door once its closed. My sister has the best relationship with her ex. That's the way it should be. Excuse me for that word, Kim, but there is no better word I can think of.

Baklava is good. That's a fun project, teaching them their full family heritage. I thougt it was Greek though. It's Iranian too?