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Post by primamateria on Sept 20, 2005 2:49:26 GMT
Hi All, I thought I'd try my hand at learning horary astrology while I have a little time off from other duties. My first question was 'is marriage indicated for me?' I am such a novice to this that I don't even know if I've cast the chart correctly. Anyhow... This matter has been on my mind for a while because I have been feeling that perhaps I am not going to marry again - my circumstances are not exactly conducive to having a partner. I've been trying to work out some other model for having the relationship I want. here is the chart: I notice first up Jupiter right there next to Spica (which I should have realised would be there as I've been looking forward to Jupiter's upcoming exact conjunction there as my natal (full) moon is there at 24 Libra). I recently learned that Spica and her mate Arcturus are said to represent soul-mate love: (from the lunar planner site) Ok, so I gather that Jupiter is me, the querent - very apt as my name (real name) means 'beloved of Jupiter' and my attention is always drawn to his placement. next, I believe the quesited is indicated by (seventh house ruler) mercury - please someone tell me if I'm mistaken - up there in the 11th conjunct the sun. Another alchemical aspect. hmm. That fifth house moon opposite Jupiter is telling me something - likely to do with my commitments to my children and other creative pursuits. I'm also thinking that Neptune on the IC is reminding me of my 'childhood dream' - which does not necessarily mean fulfillment of such (in a cadent house but on an angle - does this mean the dream is dead or in power??). so I am wondering about the succedent house placements of these - does this mean that this matter will 'rise to power'? I am going to keep reading up on all of this - but will really value any input... my mind is boggling at the moment! Light, Prima
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Post by svenskasfinx on Sept 20, 2005 6:21:13 GMT
Hello Prima! I think I would have added Juno and Eros to this question chart, but that's me, and I do get the impression that the things I like to see are clutter to other people, but I assume that Juno is in the 7th house. I think Eros is also in the First house if I'm not mistaken. I guess we can ask about that, and mentally draw it in. This is some of what I see....excluding those factors: With the Moon's last conjunction being the North Node in Aries in the 5th house, the question may have been provoked by Cultural expectations and impuses concerning love, not only that but there was Lastly an opposition of Jupiter in Libra to the Moon in Aries, dealing with 5th and 11th house issues there as well.. these are also the ruler and co rulers of the chart, opposite signs and opposite houses.. The 7th house ruler IS conjunct the Sun, ruler of the 10th, however its seperating as opposed to applying and that is a matter which timing and Horary is very strict with it seems, all aspects that will come to some kind of fruition must be apply... I do see the Sun making a trine to Chrion in the 3rd (applying), this seems to me that eventually this idea of traditional "marrage" may be replaced with another version of commitment-- (I'm thinking out loud due to the fact I KNOW Juno is in that 7th house, and Eros is rising in the 1st of this chart) Anyone else? Help me, cos I'm not so good at this , are you involved with a romantic situation? (Moon in the 5th house) (Eros in the First) If so, I can assume that the other person (Juno in 7th) is commited, but perhaps not in a traditional sense.. Just a few thoughts, Take care, and I hope this helps! svenskasfinx
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Post by primamateria on Sept 20, 2005 7:04:45 GMT
Hi Svenskasfinx! Thanks - yes Juno is in 7th at 15 Gemini, as is Psyche at 19, and eros is in the first at 8 Sag, 2 degrees from the AC. answering your questions - am I involved romantically? Sort of, with a very reluctant scorpio (chart posted in synastry thread under mars/juno/chiron/saturn thread), who seems to like me a lot but seems contracted to give me as little attention as possible. And yes, he is committed, although divorced - his ex wife (who is remarried with a brand new baby) seems to run his life for him (oh dear I am a bit grumpy aren't I?). But he is quite clearly not ever going to marry again - perhaps this adamant stance of his is calling my own views into question. HOwever, while I believe in a supportive, loving partnership he believes relationships in general are distractions to be avoided. I have no idea what I'm doing with him lol. At any rate, I have tried very hard to put HIM out of my mind in casting this chart, as he tends to muddle things for me. So, with 5th and 11th house issues am I looking at lovers and friends but no life-partner? Is the separating conjunction of Sun and Mercury invalid in this chart? also, can I read this chart back to my natal as I can see a few relevant contacts. eek, maybe I should have started with an easier question! Thanks again Svenskasfinx
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Post by svenskasfinx on Sept 20, 2005 20:24:13 GMT
Hi Svenskasfinx! Thanks - yes Juno is in 7th at 15 Gemini, as is Psyche at 19, and eros is in the first at 8 Sag, 2 degrees from the AC. answering your questions - am I involved romantically? Sort of, with a very reluctant scorpio (chart posted in synastry thread under mars/juno/chiron/saturn thread), who seems to like me a lot but seems contracted to give me as little attention as possible. And yes, he is committed, although divorced - his ex wife (who is remarried with a brand new baby) seems to run his life for him (oh dear I am a bit grumpy aren't I?). But he is quite clearly not ever going to marry again - perhaps this adamant stance of his is calling my own views into question. HOwever, while I believe in a supportive, loving partnership he believes relationships in general are distractions to be avoided. I have no idea what I'm doing with him lol. At any rate, I have tried very hard to put HIM out of my mind in casting this chart, as he tends to muddle things for me. So, with 5th and 11th house issues am I looking at lovers and friends but no life-partner? Is the separating conjunction of Sun and Mercury invalid in this chart? also, can I read this chart back to my natal as I can see a few relevant contacts. eek, maybe I should have started with an easier question! Thanks again Svenskasfinx Hej again Prima! I think you may be seeing things with restrictions just because I see the 11th house something more lasting than "7th house" issues.. because your friends, your dreams and your wishes are certainly things which will or should outlast any partnership in the world... the 7th house ruler in the 11th says something about the partnership... I may be idealistic but I feel (probably just as my husband feels) that its your friend who one shares the most with, and when that friend is a partner as well, it can be one of the most fulfilling relationships people can have...as long as they stay open to it...and try not to put so many conditions on it.... Eros love is also like that, as Kim often says (see for example the thread on "Eros and marrage, something's got to give" for more information) Eros kind of love is no guarantee that the relationship will be "successful" or "perminent" but it will be full of passion, and life changing. Eros being conjunct the ASC in this chart says to me its a part of the question and why you asked it. I hope its helpful, I hiope someone else has something better to add to this, cos I am way out of my element take care, svenskasfinx
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Post by primamateria on Sept 20, 2005 20:44:50 GMT
thanks Svenskasfinx, you've been very helpful and I really appreciate it! peace, Prima
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Post by Kim Falconer on Sept 21, 2005 0:23:25 GMT
This is an insightful thread—and Yes, Svenskasfinx, it’s probably helpful to put Juno and Eros-Psyche in this chart, which you both have noted. Juno is strongly reinforcing of committed, socially significant relationships there in the 7th—Eros in the first has a greater sense of Love for the sake of erotic transformation as opposed to Love-security-marriage. There is some ‘push-pull’ with that, and the oppositions. Traditional rules for this question are: If a woman askes, take the rulers of the 1st and 7th for her marriage, the Sun foir the opposite sex & Mars-to the Sun- (and Eros) for her attraction to the opposite sex. Work out the Arabic Part of Marriage-Asc + Dsc. – Venus = 20 Sagittarius (double check?) M is conjunct Pluto in the 1st house. The better the aspect between the rulers of the 1st and M or the rulers denoting attraction or the ruler of the 1st and the 7th, Jupiter, Mars or Venus, the better the outlook for marriage. With Part of M conjunct Pluto, contemplation re what is truly desired may be essential. Also consider the ruler of the ritual 9th. As M is approaching a sextile to Jupiter and a trine to co-rule/9th house ruler Moon, the outlook is strong. What does this chart say about the husband? Anyone care to speculate? (Look to the sign on the 7th, and the placement and aspect of Mercury. The quincunx aspect between Moon and Sun might say something about the querent needing to support the man in some way or pay off his debts! Interesting! Kim
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Post by primamateria on Sept 21, 2005 9:33:28 GMT
Hi Kim, thanks for your help. I did double check the part of marriage using an online calculator and it came up with 2 cancer - which puts it conjunct part of fortune/spirit and ruled by the moon, although I am not sure what significance the eighth house puts on it (yet). I hope that you are right about 20 sag (!), although either way it seems Pluto is implicated, so I will take your advice and consider things carefully. Pluto sure is ravaging my relationship-life at present, and I sure need it. well I guess this is my can of worms and any attempt to be objective about any future husband will be full of projections (especially considering my own natal mercury - 0 gem - and AC/DC - 9 gem/sag - a mirror image!) but I will have a go; mercury/gemini in 7th looks for a partner who is an intellectual match, can 'keep up' and 'understand him', maybe a bit hard to pin down, a bit of a rascal... I will go there also and say that this is the face of Mercury who is 'the escort of the Godess' (often depicted as escort to the Three Graces or Charities) and consort to Aphrodite in the Chymical Wedding of alchemy... in those terms he is 'fixed' (i.e. made less pneumatic and more chthonic). He will enjoy the company of women, in other words. mercury/virgo in 11th I will venture as a 'Peter Pan', needing a community of followers in his adventures (lost boys!), wants to save the world, save someone, be saved. (Kim maybe that sun/moon aspect you mention is Wendy? ...square Pluto in Sag - hmm...he fights his inner Captain Hook . Maybe thats taking the metaphor too far! I keep thinking of Mercury visiting the underworld Lord and struggling to return - like an earthbound angel? (well, I would see him that poetically!) Good grief, I should stop right here. I'm reading Karl Kerenyi's 'Hermes, Guide of Souls' in which he makes the point that Hades/Pluto is always implicated with Mercury, as is Eros, who is considered Hermetic in nature even when not 'a son of Hermes and Aphrodite'. Certainly all three are compelling to me, even when I'm not informally involved with a Scorpio! I have a thing for dark, intense and intelligent men - but whenever I fall for one I run for cover before it all gets too real. Towards Unity, PM
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Post by primamateria on Sept 21, 2005 10:48:38 GMT
Oh, one more thing that has been niggling - a feeling that I 'still have time' but that I don't want to waste it! I don't suppose anyone has any ideas on timing from this chart? thanks again, PM
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Post by Juliet on Sept 21, 2005 12:21:09 GMT
P o Marriage is at 3 deg Cancer, so conjunct POF, which is in Regiomontanus 7!! And about timing?? Is Moon Void of Course, or applying to an conjunction to Vx AND a sextile to PoF/PoM conjunction?? I feel the last. You still have time.
"If a woman askes, take the rulers of the 1st and 7th for her marriage, the Sun for the opposite sex & Mars-to the Sun- (and Eros) for her attraction to the opposite sex."
Kim, are you saying that we should look at Mars as co-ruler for female attraction here??
Merc would be considered combust by Lilly, but I'd say it is very strong, in its own sign and conjunct Sun as ruler for men. Note that it is in separating square to Pluto in 1. Prima, would you (in all honesty ;D) call yourself a Plutonic person, cause that Pluto in 1 might tell something about you, being in 7th from the 7th, and 1st from 1st.
Merc is in 11, so he might be a friend, or you two will be married ánd be friends. He might not be dark and intense, but mercurial.
But there's a problem: I do not see any applying Ptolemic aspects between all these rulers, except for an opposition between Venus and Mars. Mutual reception there, so big attraction. But since PoM and PoF are in 7 and in Cancer, I say Yes, you will marry again. Venus in 12, are you hiding now?? Symbolically?
Moon about to leave 5 can also represent you getting fed up with casual 'commitment'.
Will you meet someone at work??
Blessings, Juliet
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Post by primamateria on Sept 21, 2005 13:31:26 GMT
Dear Juliet,
thanks for that - I didn't think to try a different house system.
you wrote:
Prima, would you (in all honesty ) call yourself a Plutonic person, cause that Pluto in 1 might tell something about you, being in 7th from the 7th, and 1st from 1st. Been wondering about that myself...In all honesty, I wouldn't call myself Plutonic but Pluto is strong in my natal chart at 22 Virgo in 3 conjunct IC, aspecting a lot of the whole chart. I would call myself Mercurial (and do - the alchemical Prima Materia is Mercury) with a whole lotta Venus. I'm thinking that in this question Pluto (who is currently transiting my natal 7th, squaring my natal) lends depth and riches to what was always quite a misty girlish little dream of mine. I see and experience it all very differently these days...thankfully.
venus in 12 - hiding?...yes indeed. And spending time with men who don't fit with what I know I really need and want, because I feel I have limited time (time off from my children) and resources. I've been 'dumbing down and dating down' for too long. moon leaving 5, yes I am fed up with the 'part-time' or 'pleasure' only casual thing - I don't want crumbs anymore!... and yes it does look like I will have to go back to work, especially with that Mars in 6 (giving self esteem new meaning!).
Now I will go and research Ptolemic aspects! I'm also unfamiliar with the term 'combust' in this context... but really enjoying learning all about this.
Light Hearts, PM
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Post by svenskasfinx on Sept 21, 2005 21:14:07 GMT
Also consider the ruler of the ritual 9th. "...As M is approaching a sextile to Jupiter and a trine to co-rule/9th house ruler Moon, the outlook is strong. What does this chart say about the husband? Anyone care to speculate? (Look to the sign on the 7th, and the placement and aspect of Mercury. The quincunx aspect between Moon and Sun might say something about the querent needing to support the man in some way or pay off his debts! Interesting!..." I see a parting conjunction with Mercury in Virgo, in terms of Mars, but Mercury "FACE" (I've been reading alot of the tradtional things since Kim posted this Horary section and the Dwads..I think Mercury is in a Venus Dwad, if I'm not mistaken.) Mercury's is the 7th house ruler in the 11th house, because the Pluto aspect was wide and parting, I didn't consider it...As Juliet said, "Dignified" due to Mercury being such a strong placement and strong planet in this chart. But still, a friend.. he must certainly be a friend or something you hope or wish for... As far as the 9th house goes, this is the house of legal marrage... for the sake of religion, law, (in laws?).. Its ruler is in the 5th house, seeming to mean, marrage being because of the children, or for LOVE... I'm wondering how close Eros is to the fixed star Antares? It must be very close.... this being in the first house, seems to be something you bring into the mix although Eros is significant to the "question"... the man involved. There must be something more to this.... keep me posted svenskasfinx
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Post by primamateria on Sept 22, 2005 0:47:57 GMT
dear Svenskasfinx, I'm probably stating the obvious but Antares (Watcher/Guardian Archangel Oriel) is at 9 Sag, opposite Aldebaran (Watcher/Guardian/ Archangel Michael) at 9 Gem (well really they are in the constellations Scorpio and Taurus, but I won't go into primordial myth here and now, as I tend to run on a bit, in case you hadn't noticed ... Eros is at 8 degrees 21 so it is less than a degree from Antares....Bernadette Brady would probably say that it's no big deal as these fixed stars are not ' in paran' but I put them in because I like them so much... its interesting that this angle is on the same axis (although opp) as my natal AC/DC, which is exactly on Aldebaran/Antares, and should remind me of how much protection and guidance is available. Also, the moon in this chart is opposite my natal moon, which is conjunct Spica/Arcturus. But I digress... Eros/Antares - an indicator of what I want from a marriage/partner? Or something in me that is coming to the surface - I read Kim's posts on Eros last night, including Amoroso's beautiful prose and its all resonating... definitely surfacing after a long period of denial and rejection - now needing to stop being afraid of what I want, stop feeding feelings of undeservedness. I read this yesterday and thought it quite apt: Need, in Eros and with Resource brings into being the divine child Mercury. So perhaps Eros is there in the first because I am ready - 'laid down beside' so to speak. so with Saturn in Leo the ninth..make manifest my heart's desire through tradition and or higher learning perhaps? Eek, it has just occurred to me that that ninth house ruler being in the fifth has an air of 'shot gun wedding' ... I am a baby making machine lol. Oooh, thats not funny is it. Peace, Joy! PM
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Post by primamateria on Sept 22, 2005 1:17:51 GMT
PS. Kim, I just read through some articles on horary and discover that a chart with early degrees and moon VOC cannot be read - so is this chart a dud? If so, how will I know when to cast another? cheers, PM
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Post by svenskasfinx on Sept 22, 2005 5:40:05 GMT
I just got an idea...
(aside from the expression of Eros being coloured by the star Antares (a "royal star") the 2nd and 3rd house ruler (Saturn) IS in the 9th....I really get the sense of trying to be validated, (not a "shot gun wedding" but you know traditionally THOSE are the one's who do catch their "man" as they say)
Its about Validation of all these passionate feelings, or at least that's my angle. Now days in different cultures (say for example here in Sweden) one does NOT get married simply for children.. in fact a couple can live together for 20 years (really!) be considered as man and wife in the law (or something like that in a lesser degree) and still never really go all out there and "get married"; I think its because people here see it more like a party, you either have it or you don't.
However I know that in the US and in Aussiland that there is more pressure...It worries me, is it the wedding that validates or is it the commitment made in private that does? When you bring up gettting married, I have my own shadows to fight with concerning tradtions and pressure (being that most of my family is in the US and they absolutly DON'T like this Swedish thing), then there is the judgement that people place upon people who stand "outside" of those traditions...
I don't think this chart is considered a "dud".. the degree is not too early, and the Moon is NOT void of course, it will eventually make the quincux aspect to the Sun and Mercury before passing into the next sign. It seems the end results have a relationship to each other Mercury and Moon (co-ruler and ruler of the 9th house) quincux as Kim says means something quite odd about the situation and may be in need of an adjustment between the two people, but there IS contact.
take care,
svenskasfinx
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Post by primamateria on Sept 22, 2005 9:00:21 GMT
Dear Svenskasfinx, I'm so happy you cleared up the question of 'dud' chart for me - I was a bit concerned! Yes I think I get what you mean when you mention Validation, although the word has some strange connotations these days - especially in pop psychology where it has become fairly negative... I got the impression that you mean that the chart has the feel of having or needing a concrete or manifest sign of all the emotion/eros... I'm with you all the way there! I do want a relationship that displays all the evidence of commitment and 'a life together', as well as the freedom to be ourselves... I totally agree with you about the pressure from society though - and you know it isn't about the day in church for me either... that is just part of it, the beginning - a celebration of intent, an announcement to the world (not the last party before spending the rest of my life cleaning up after someone lol). No, I am a dreamer and creator and I wish for One Magnificent Love, not to be a housewife in the traditional sense...my exhusband can testify to how crap I am at that Now, after I posted that last question about voc moon etc I thought to ask the question again - wtih more focus now I have decided that I DO actually want it, and it seems the couple of days of processing has done me good: Check it out! Part of Marriage is at Gemini 15 conjunct Juno Psyche is at 19 Gemini Eros is 9 Sag conjunct Antares (Astrodienst is having tech difficulties?? I don't know why Eros shows up at Aries point) (I apologise to those of you that prefer no asteroids - I did only include the ones that are relevant to me in this) Clarity, PM
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