Black moon Lilith and Chiron i synastry

[Emma]

I've been trying to make sense out of a synastrychart and would like to get some reflections to help me with it when it comes to Chiron and Black Moon Lilith.

Female Venus/Uranus is conjunct Male Chiron and opposite Male Black moon Lilith and her own Chiron (Male Black moon Lilith is conjunct female Chiron)

Male venus is opposite Female Black Moon Lilith
Male mars is trine Female Black Moon Lilith.

Thanks, Emma

[Emma]

This is the chart I'm looking at. (Sorry if my english isn't that well, it's not my natal language.) Female is the inside wheel.

[Kim Falconer]

Hi Emma,

Welcome to the forum. Please take a moment to join and read the introduction.

These are interesting questions about the synastry you have posted. I will comment on them as time allows (just went back to Uni!)

Can anyone else start this off?

Be back here soon,
Warmly,
Kim

[Amoroso]

Dear Emma,

If you scroll down the list of threads in this topic, you will come to one on "Lilith/Chiron Conjunctions in Synastry." That should start you off.

Hope this helps,
Amoroso

[levaju]

Hi! Now I've registred :-)

As you probably have understood it is the synastrychart of me and my spouse. I work as an psychological astrologer and he as a psychologist, - different apporoaches but still very connected. This, being different but still connected, is also a major theme of our life together. We've been together for six years, living together, having two children from our earlier relationships. I would say we "play beside" each other and like it that way since it becomes a powerstruggle when we try to play "together".

I'm very familiar with our charts (natal, synastric and composite) but since I only studied Chiron for 6 years (mostly in respect of the natal chart) and am totally new when it comes to Black Moon Lilith (BML) I got inspired to discuss those, as they occur in our synastrychart, after reading your comments below on Chiron/BML conjunct. Your answers and perspectives gave me the impression that you are knowledable and active at this forum! :-)

As you can see of the rest of our synastrychart, this is an intense and active relationship in both the good and more complicated sense. There's mental/emotional attraction and warmth, learning experiences and healing but also much distress as in confrontations with illusions, opposite perspectives, control issues and emotional distans from time to time.

Eg. there is a grand cross formed in the synastrychart by his sun/saturn in opposition, squaring his own chiron/BML/neptune-conjunction (focal of his natal t-square configuration) and my venus/uranus in opposition to chiron. (Which is in conjunction to his chiron/bml/neptune..) My mars/sun/BML conjunction opposites my own moon (and is part of my natal grand cross configuration!) and his venus. Chiron och BML are very involved as active in our natal charts as well as in the synastry.

Since BML is new to me I do find it very interesting. What I have learned about BML so far seems to explain many things about our relationship in a deeper sense. A sidetrack, - I don't know if any of you are interested in composites, I am, and in our composite BML is the focalplanet of a t-squareconfiguration, squaring composite venus and saturn (in opposite to oneanother). If anyone has done any research of BML in composite, please comment :-)

[Kim Falconer]

Hello LeVaJu,

You said, “I've been trying to make sense out of a synastry chart and would like to get some reflections to help me with it when it comes to Chiron and Black Moon Lilith.”


We have done some work with Chiron and Lilith. To review:

What touches Chiron in the chart awakens a very duel nature. It is the part of us that wants to be heroic, yet needs training, needs coaching. It is the part of us that has returned, often exhausted, from a journey and needs to be healed, to recuperate. Contacts here can remind us that we are “super heroes” ready to do the impossible AND they can also remind us of failures and past hurts, past wounds.

Your BML opposite his Venus, his Chiron/BML/Ne on your Ve/Ur activates not only these “Chiron” energies but BML and Venus as well. What might have remained “collective”, is brought home in a very personal way!

Lilith is often ANGRY though she can represent the resolution of conflicts. She is an daemon of raw, instinctual wisdom, power and sexual autonomy. Her stories are diverse and sometimes terrifying. In all cases, she is unique in her refusal to relinquish her power. As the first wife of Adam, she left the garden and was outcast as a demoness when she wanted to switch positions or make love side by side. Adam had to be on top.

Lilith bows down to no man yet is willing to share her tantric arts with him. In many cases, man violently rejects her, projecting onto her his repressed and demonic fears of dark feminine power. This turns her into an outcast, explosive with rage and bent on retaliation.

Lilith's symbol is like a hand and can be considered a beckon, a salutation, or perhaps a dire warning, depending on how she is approached. What intention do we have in mind when we meet with this dark goddess?

This is a question that BOTH of you must ask, all the time. It doesn’t just resolve or go away!

We all have her plutonic quality in us, the unconscious energy that brings up harsh boundaries between life and death, ecstasy and suffering, passion and revulsion, enslavement and freedom. How do we honor Lilith in our lives? Do we exile her from consciousness or build her a sanctuary for potent, creative expression? When she contacts Chiron (and Venus) these issues come “home” into the heart of the relationship.

What attracts my attention initially about your synastry connections involving BML is his Chiron/BML/Neptune conjunct your Venus/Uranus opposite your Chiron. So often I find these Chrion/Venus contacts in synastry associate with a kind of “distance” in the relationship that is difficult—at some point—to breach. The couple may be on other sides of the world, or very different in age, or in love but not able to express it because of other commitments or responsibilities. Judging by your Pluto’s and the Chiron opposite Chiron—he’s around a 45’ Capricorn and you’re about a 71’Leo. Right away there is that “distance” that Chiron is so profoundly linked to. I think it says something about Chiron’s ability to cross boundaries (I of all people know that “age doesn’t matter” yet there are very interesting issues inherent in such a relationship…as time goes on.) Chiron seems to “go with” these issues.

So we have an acute awakening of the “audacity to attempt” of Chiron—the preparation for battle and adventure. Somehow that adventure will take you both into the “collective” issues of Lilith and that may be a source of the “power struggles when you play together”.

People are like permanent transits, as I am certain you are aware. Being around each other wakes up everything in each other’s charts “as if it were a transiting planet”. In particular, his Ch/BML/Ne “cranks up” your Ve/Ur opp Ch. Wow. There is something quite charismatic about this, yet also your conflicting desires to “be close” (Venus) and “be free” (Uranus) are constantly being prodded. I am sure that after 6 years you have found ways to express both your need for autonomy and your need for relationship together. How interesting that his Venus in Aquarius trine Uranus echoes this.

Back to the Chiron/Lilith question. I feel that Chiron has to “do” something with the BML. Together, you stimulate in each other the desire to express this most potent, creative, rebellious and “Angry” energy. You may make it your mission to find out what is beneath that anger—what is the source. This could play out in the relationship itself, through your co-parenting or through the work you do with clients. One way or another, being around each other makes it paramount that you both give this BML energy expression…Chiron says it will be a “learning experience”, an adventure, a challenge and something that, faced creatively, will give you the courage to articulate.

Being a mouth piece for Lilith is no small thing. Yet being together means you must to just that!

I hope this has given you some ideas. I’ll comment on the composite (I do work with them extensively) as time allows.

Anyone have a Chiron/Venus/Lilith synastry connection that can add some thoughts?

Warmly,
Kim

[svenskasfinx]

Hello Kim, and everyone!

I hope this question isn't too far off topic with the Lilith Black Moon question..or even my statement here:

My husband's Sun is exactly conjunct my Black Moon Lilith..by a matter of seconds.. (my B M L is in my 12th house in Gemini) His own B M L is in Piscies at roughly 6th degree in the 11th house making a conjunction aspect to my MC and trines to my Mars (and others) and his own Moon and Jupiter ect

And my Sun is conjunct his Moon.. (thinking about luminaries and echoes of themes)

My question is, if the Black Moon Lilith is a represetitive of some angry female energies, do the both of us bring this out of each other?

Another thing is the idea of these planets in the sign of Gemini and the darker side of Gemini.. a very Light and sunny side to us and then at the same time a very Dark and brooding, reluctant and even angry side to us and our shared lives..(his is of course in Picses but still a "double bodied sign".

Am I making sense?.. should I just go to sleep and reword this question?

take care all,

svenskasfinx

[Kim Falconer]

These are good questions--on topic I think.

As with any synastry contact, the planets can "project". He can feel all sunny and creative and you can feel a brooding (or equally creative yet very independent) kind of force. I think it might be quite "competitive" at times.

Then, it can switch. You can be "the Sun" and shine like a rainbow and he can slip under into that darker side where the sun is not particularly shining!

Projection. It's how we learn about ourselves in the context of relationship. Think of the link (synastry aspects) between two charts as a TWO way STREET! The energy can go both ways...even when we don't see it coming!

In a relationship with an ex, my BML was conjunct his Mercury/S. Node in Scorpio. OMG The intellectual arguments that made him more and more "intellectual" and me more and more a demoness are tortuously unforgettable...20 years later!!! Mamoth amounts of anger! I'm not saying it HAD to express that way...I think it could have been quite creative. But, it degraded and got to a point neither of us, intellects aside, could do a thing about it--save separate!

(that's not a very good bedtime story...

Sweet dreams now!!

Kim

[svenskasfinx]

Dear Kim,

Thank you for answering my question about Black Moon Lilith, as I have been thinking about it for quite a while now..

Kim said:

.........."Projection. It's how we learn about ourselves in the context of relationship. Think of the link (synastry aspects) between two charts as a TWO way STREET! The energy can go both ways...even when we don't see it coming!"

As you said about projection, I am just recently beginning to notice this with relationships all over the place. (just the fact that people make contacts with my own planets and they become more like "me" for example)

Yes lately it has been more of something I've become aware of. I get the feeling that there is more to Black Moon Lilith than meets the eye here in with our synastry charts, because at first it seemed as though the connection between the two was somewhat insignificant due to the location of my natal Black Moon Lilith.

Its all alone, or so it seems with maybe a sextile aspect to Chiron/Pandora in conjunction in my Aries 10th house.

I thought that was about it, but then it turns out there are in fact a whole bunch of connections at or about the first degrees in many places in the chart as well as a conjunction of asteroid 3200 Phaethon. (another key word aside from "crash and burn" is "phenomenon" or "phenomenal".. (thinking about your placement of that asteroid too))

As so it goes I guess in some ways there are a lot of "marrages of extremes" in my chart to begin with, and in that way, I suspect my fatalistic flaw/goal was too seek out such extremes in my relationships..

So I suspect this pretty much sums it up. Not that I'm complaining. I have more to add somewhere when time permits, but I wanted to say thank you for pointing out a few things and reminding me about that "two way street" of energy flow.-

Thankyou so very much!

take care,

svenskasfinx

[Kim Falconer]

That's interesting feedback, Svenskasfinx.

And about asteroid 3200 Phaethon too--very interesting. You said, (another key word aside from "crash and burn" is "phenomenon" or "phenomenal") That has a lot more appeal than the crashing and the burning!

And the nature of projection is something too easy to "forget" yet so vital to recognize!

Thanks for you comments and insights as always!

Warmly,
Kim

[aquariusrising2]

When you guys are talking about Lilith, are you talking about the one with the crescent moon shape and the cross underneath it, or the asteroid 1181. From the chart graphic it looks like the crescent moon (black moon lilith?) Would you consider them both the same sort of energy? I read other threads on Lilith and it seems that they are both the same sort of thing. (I know it is not a synastry question, I am just trying to get clear on what you guys are talking about in this thread

A.R.

[Kim Falconer]

Yes, A.R., we are talking about BML or Black Moon Lilith here. She is the crescent shaped symbol, similar to Ceres only the "crescent" is thicker and usually colored in black.

To review (and I know they can get confusing) there are THREE astronomical points called Lilith. One is the BLACK MOON LILITH, (BML--the crescent above the cross) which represents the vortex or empty lunar focal point along the moon's apogee.

Another is the DARK MOON LILITH, or the hypothetical second moon in orbit around the earth.

Last, and not least, is asteroid, 1181 LILITH. I find that each of these astrological points and bodies carry the archetype of Lilith, though there are subtle differences in how and where they express. When I can define it more clearly, I will.

The BML (which the original questions by Le Va Ju) seems to have a deeply unconscious quality that does project into relationships with others (we experience the energy through another). The asteroid is perhaps easier to see as "self". I haven't worked much with the Dark Moon Lilith yet so I can't say much more. For now I think if we get a grasp of the Lilith archetype we are on the road to understanding all three of these points.

Thanks for your question. I was wondering if everyone knew which Lilith we were on about!

Warmly,
Kim

[levaju]

Hello Kim!

I found your thoughts of the synastrychart very interesting! I will continue writing my reflections och thouhts on this subject when I'm back on my feet again. (Have caught a terrible cold :-( ) Just wanted to pop in and say that I have read what you wrote and am grateful for the input!

Best wishes,
LeVaJu

[levaju]

Finally feeling a little better from this terrible cold.. I'll try to give some input and reflections.

Kim said:

What touches Chiron in the chart awakens a very duel nature. (...) Contacts here can remind us that we are “super heroes” ready to do the impossible AND they can also remind us of failures and past hurts, past wounds.

I laughted when I read this. My spouse even call us "the super heroes" from time to time but I would like to add that we DO put each other in contact with past hurts and wounds. It's like a circle actually. When one of us reacts out of previous events in our life, the one not "affected" (but who touched the sore spot) has to become the superhero. As I've seen it we put each other back into hurts and failures, but also help each other to heal those wounds, - very much Chirotic brought home in a personal way, isn't it. :-)

Kim said:

What intention do we have in mind when we meet with this dark goddess? This is a question that BOTH of you must ask, all the time. It doesn’t just resolve or go away! We all have her plutonic quality in us, the unconscious energy that brings up harsh boundaries between life and death, ecstasy and suffering, passion and revulsion, enslavement and freedom.

What I find interesting here is that I've got a first house Pluto and he's got a Scorpio ascendant. The plutonic energy runs high in both of us, and in regard to our relationship, I would interpret it as if the placement of BML in our synastry put those issues even more in focus. I can relate to all of your mentioned opposites in a personal way of our relationship. To give some feedback: His opinion is that after death, there is nothing. My opinion (working as a psychic medium as well) is that we continues to live. We often takes the opposite view of subjects, not surprising since it is an opposition. Still, there is much in common in our views as I wrote about earlier.

Kim said:

So often I find these Chrion/Venus contacts in synastry associate with a kind of “distance” in the relationship that is difficult—at some point—to breach. The couple may be on other sides of the world, or very different in age, or in love but not able to express it because of other commitments or responsibilities. Judging by your Pluto’s and the Chiron opposite Chiron—he’s around a 45’ Capricorn and you’re about a 71’Leo.

It's true there's the agedifference. He is a 45' Capricorn, and I'm a 70' Leo. As time has gone by I have become more aware of how much this affects our relationship in ways I didn't find to be important from the beginning. He's been more perceptive of this dilemma from the beginning, having a longer lifeperspective.

Kim said:

In particular, his Ch/BML/Ne “cranks up” your Ve/Ur opp Ch. Wow. There is something quite charismatic about this, yet also your conflicting desires to “be close” (Venus) and “be free” (Uranus) are constantly being prodded. I am sure that after 6 years you have found ways to express both your need for autonomy and your need for relationship together. How interesting that his Venus in Aquarius trine Uranus echoes this.

I've been reflecting upon the same perspective but in a little confused state of mind. In my previous relationships my BF always been upset with me for being "cold" and "distant". The father of my son were following me around to get "closer" actually. My spouse now has also been accused in the same way, - and been followed around like this. We both has got a need for personal space. I would say that there's the echo! The solution for us to live together is quite unique as well. We live in a large house in which I live on the first floor while he lives on the second. We would not want it any other way! We're so different in habits, in the way we want the house to be furnished etc so being together in the same house, - but still having a place of our own. It is ideal for us. (But many people just shake their heads.. Other envy ur for doing what works instead of what is "the right way to live".)

Kim said:

I feel that Chiron has to “do” something with the BML. Together, you stimulate in each other the desire to express this most potent, creative, rebellious and “Angry” energy. You may make it your mission to find out what is beneath that anger—what is the source. This could play out in the relationship itself, through your co-parenting or through the work you do with clients.

I would put this energy into our client-work. That's an area of big interest for both of us and something we share in many ways. We talk about it a lot and help eachother from our own perspective. I also would say the energy comes in between us but in a more negative way. We do not co-parent our children. This does not work out well so we have chosen to be more of single parents to our childen having our spouse as another adult only in the house. He does not parent my son, I don't parent his, - but we are adult friends to each others childen. Same as the living arrangement, - we do what works, not what's supposed due to standard norms.

Kim said:

One way or another, being around each other makes it paramount that you both give this BML energy expression…Chiron says it will be a “learning experience”, an adventure, a challenge and something that, faced creatively, will give you the courage to articulate.

I couldn't agree more. We have to face so many things in this relationship and we take it from day to day. Most of the time it is very well between us. As I've written a couple of time now, - we are creative and not bound to norms of behavior. We want it to work. If there's a day when it won't work even in our own ways, - that's ok too. We're close but don't own eachother. For many people it would feel very uncomfortable to have it as unstable as it might seem from time to time, but for us this is a very interesting relationship whereever it takes us in the end. Also, as you write Kim, things has to be articulated between us. That's part of what makes the relationship a healing journey.

Best wishes,

[Kim Falconer]

Hello LeVaJu,

I am glad to hear you are feeling better. Sun in Aries now, Yeah!!!

Thanks for all your feedback and elaboration. It's a helpful contribution to the forum--we can all learn things from this chart example!

I was particularly struck by your words, "If there's a day when it won't work even in our own ways, - that's ok too."

This is a very creative approach and I admire it in both of you.

Warm wishes,
Kim