Lilith/Chiron Conjunctions in Synastry

[wetlioness]

hello...

this is my first post, so first of all, thank you for providing this forum, Kim, and i thank you in advance for any feedback you might provide...

okay, my question has to do with Chiron and Lilith - i THINK it's Dark Moon, but you'll be able to tell after i give you the birth info, if you decide to take a look at the charts...

this is a relationship that started online with a man who lives in Spain (i'm in NY) and about a year ago, i flew there to spend 5 days with him...we have had a rocky road, to say the least, and we're in the midst of yet another (baffling) estrangement....there is such passion and sexual attraction, and we have spent countless hours talking and enjoying each other's company, yet we've also experienced lots of difficulties, especially in communication, ironically....

my question: we have this mutual contact between our 1st house Chirons and our Liliths....they are EXACT conjunctions, and i've been so confused as to what the significance is....also, his True Node is exactly conjunct my Scorpio Neptune in the 9th....i'm not quite sure what that is, but if you look at my True Node (which is on an annoying cusp), it seems we've got a nodal axis thing going on, too....

any explanation or advice you can give me would be strongly appreciated, as i'm about to make contact with the old online group he and i used to frequent together....i've been in "exile" for months now, but i keep getting emails from other members, including the forum owner to please return because i'm both loved and missed...i'm very ambivalent about returning, all because of him and my powerful feelings for him and the unknown...(two different psychics have told me he and i were lovers and spouses in previous lives)

my information:

August 19, 1967
7:19pm
East White Plains, NY

JD's:

October 21, 1975
4:30pm
Santander, Spain


again, any insight into these weird conjunctions would be greatly appreciated...

[Kim Falconer]

Hi Wetlioness,

Welcome to the forum!

This is a great question about Litlith and Chrion--There are THREE astronomical points called Lilith. One is the BLACK MOON LILITH, the vortex or empty lunar focal point along the moon's apogee. Another is the DARK MOON LILITH, or the hypothetical second moon in orbit around the earth and one is the asteroid, 1181 LILITH. Each of these astrological points and bodies carry the archetype of Lilith.

I think you are refering in this case (double conjunctions to the first house Chirons') to the Black Moon Lilith although the asteroids make some interesting statements too.

None the least is your asteroid Lilith conjunct your south node (his Sun/Uranus is there) and his asteroid Lilith conjunct his Pandora on your Uranus/Mars Midpoint!

There is much to comment on that will have to wait until tomorrow. I am out of time now but will be back to this in the morning.

I think we are looking at a great deal of “approach/avoidance”. You are certainly drawn together…it seems charismatically “meant to be” yet the disruptions and upheaval is hard for your Venus (both your Venus’ at 11 & 12 Virgo!)

More soon!
Kim

[wetlioness]

Kim said:

Hi Wetlioness,

Welcome to the forum!

This is a great question about Litlith and Chrion--There are THREE astronomical points called Lilith. One is the BLACK MOON LILITH, the vortex or empty lunar focal point along the moon's apogee. Another is the DARK MOON LILITH, or the hypothetical second moon in orbit around the earth and one is the asteroid, 1181 LILITH. Each of these astrological points and bodies carry the archetype of Lilith.

I think you are refering in this case (double conjunctions to the first house Chirons') to the Black Moon Lilith although the asteroids make some interesting statements too.

None the least is your asteroid Lilith conjunct your south node (his Sun/Uranus is there) and his asteroid Lilith conjunct his Pandora on your Uranus/Mars Midpoint!

There is much to comment on that will have to wait until tomorrow. I am out of time now but will be back to this in the morning.

I think we are looking at a great deal of “approach/avoidance”. You are certainly drawn together…it seems charismatically “meant to be” yet the disruptions and upheaval is hard for your Venus (both your Venus’ at 11 & 12 Virgo!)

More soon!
Kim

oh man, FINALLY! some good help with this!!! i've been struggling forever, it seems, thank you....i'll wait patiently for the rest

however, there are two things you mentioned that i'd like to comment on....first, depending on which House system i use (Koch or Placidus) at Astrodienst, our Chirons seem to switch from 1st house to 2nd

also, i'm not sure if you meant my True Node is conjunct my Lilith, instead of my South? ....my 2nd house contains my Rx Saturn, my Lilith, my Chiron (depending) and my True Node (which is either in Aries or Taurus, depending)......i also have a Neptune/Mars midpoint, not Uranus....either maybe you were typing quickly or i'm not reading it right, or i don't know what just happened *LOL*

oi, i need an aspirin .......hehehe


incidentally, last night i sent him a very long private message, our first contact since he cut off all contact last summer (very long story, but it was after a doozy of an incident) ....i'm not sure if he's read it yet, and i'm scared to go there just yet and check, but he'll at least see that i've tried to contact him again and that i've returned to regular posting among our old friends...i went into everything that happened and ended it on a positive note...i have no clue what to expect, but i'm fully expecting him to totally ignore it, not open it and just disappear, like the Cancerian Mars and stubborn Taurean Moon that he is.....regardless of our current status, though, Kim, this is a relationship that has been major, and it REEKS of past karma and unfinished business (though i have no clue what that could be or how to go about finding out)....it's also very confusing, due to that lovely little Venus/Neptune Square and if i'm not mistaken, the Neptune/Saturn Trine .....

alright, before i go on incessantly even more, i'll just sit and wait for your return

*sits down on the stoop and opens a magazine*

[Kim Falconer]

Hello again Wetlioness,

I can see you are at a very “strained” point in your relationship with this man. It is difficult to know what to do, and to let go of expectations and assumptions.

I don’t worry too much about house systems and cusps. There isn’t an actual brick wall out there around the ecliptic, dividing things up. It is fluid, not solid. If a planet or asteroid is within a few degrees of the cusp (as your Chiron is –6 degrees from the 2nd house cusp in the Placidus system) I read it as a conjunction and in BOTH. Chiron’s business is about over in the first and he is alreading looking towards the 2nd. He is more concerned with your development of your talents and the “preparation” for adventures that enhance the understanding of what you value most than teaching you about “who you are.” (though there is some of that too).

Do you see how this works?

As for your Asteroid Lilith, I have her at 2 degrees of Scorpio, in the 8nd house.

I tend to use the True Node yet in most cases they are within a few degrees (true and mean). Your’s is tricky because it does change signs –29 Aries and 1 Taurus. Either way, you have the same aspects, it is just more complex with the sign interpretations. Again, I would read BOTH!

What I said before was--None the least is your asteroid Lilith conjunct your south node (his Sun/Uranus is there) and his asteroid Lilith conjunct his Pandora on your Uranus/Mars Midpoint!

Your friends Su/Ur, Ve/MC, Pl/No, Me/No AND his Sun and his Uranus are conjunct your South Node (true or Mean—they are only a degree apart).

HIS asteroid Lilith, at 20 Libra, AND his asteroid Pandora at 20 Libra are on YOUR Uranus/Mars midpoint.

YOUR Neptune is exact on his North Node at 21 Scorpio and they BOTH square your Natal Mercury in the 7th. His MERCURY is opposite your natal Saturn.

You both have Mutual Eros/Juno contacts by synastry.

His Back Moon Lilith is conjunct your Chiron and his Chiron is conjunct YOUR Black Moon Lilith, though I have them within 5 degrees, not spot on exact. Either way, we have a theme.

What you have is sizzling attraction (for many reasons—the mutual Venus is big as is the Eros/Juno connections. Anything that touches Saturn makes us pay attention…and it can feel like quite a pull (or an undertow). Your Mercury contacts, because of the medium through which you met and underwent much of the relationship, as well as Uranus, comes to the foreground.

Yet there are some very intense and challenging contacts, including the Chiron/Lilith connection you mention.

What touches Chiron in the chart awakens a very duel nature. It is the part of us that wants to be heroic, yet needs training, needs coaching. It is the part of us that has returned, often exhausted, from a journey and needs to be healed, to recuperate. Contacts there can remind us that we are “super heroes” ready to do the impossible AND they can also remind us of failures and past hurts, past wounds.

Lilith is often ANGRY though she can represent the resolution of conflicts. She is an entity known by the Babylonians, Sumerians, Hebrews, and early Christians as a daemon of raw, instinctual wisdom, power and sexual autonomy. Her stories are diverse and sometimes terrifying. In all cases, she is unique in her refusal to relinquish her power. As the first wife of Adam, she left the garden and was outcast as a demoness when she wanted to switch positions or make love side by side. Adam had to be on top.

Lilith bows down to no man yet is willing to share her tantric arts with him. In many cases, man violently rejects her, projecting onto her his repressed and demonic fears of dark feminine power. This turns her into an outcast, explosive with rage and bent on retaliation.

Lilith's symbol is like a hand and can be considered a beckon, a salutation, or perhaps a dire warning, depending on how she is approached. What intention do we have in mind when we meet with this dark goddess?

We all have her plutonic quality in us, the unconscious energy that brings up harsh boundaries between life and death, ecstasy and suffering, passion and revulsion, enslavement and freedom. How do we honor Lilith in our lives? Do we exile her from consciousness or build her a sanctuary for potent, creative expression? When she contacts Chiron (and the Nodes) you have are really interesting combination.

The conflicts between who you are and who you are to become are exacerbated by Lilith. There are EXTREME issues of POWER here…power and control. Have you felt that in this relationship?

There can be resolution though I suspect this contact brings out the most vehement in both of you. Regardless of the love and attraction, there is much to resolve that FEELS like past patterns and who know, maybe they are!

I think your relationship leaves you both feeling very raw and vulnerable and wanting to “protect” from such “invasion”. It would take tremendous compassion and emotional maturity to work through this material…and I suspect that Chiron, both your Chiron’s, have what it takes.

It’s a matter of “Are you both willing to do the work?”<br>
I hope this sheds some light.
Warmly,
Kim

[wetlioness]

Kim said:

Hello again Wetlioness,

I can see you are at a very “strained” point in your relationship with this man. It is difficult to know what to do, and to let go of expectations and assumptions.

boy, you can certainly say that again! ....i asked my friend to delete that long PM i sent him before he logged back in again and now i'm glad i did...it was after i read your reply, especially the part about compassion....it would be showing compassion by leaving him be and not coming back and being RIGHT in his face, immediately, which would surely put him on the defensive...i sure hope it isn't the end, for good, of our friendship

I don’t worry too much about house systems and cusps. There isn’t an actual brick wall out there around the ecliptic, dividing things up. It is fluid, not solid. If a planet or asteroid is within a few degrees of the cusp (as your Chiron is –6 degrees from the 2nd house cusp in the Placidus system) I read it as a conjunction and in BOTH. Chiron’s business is about over in the first and he is alreading looking towards the 2nd. He is more concerned with your development of your talents and the “preparation” for adventures that enhance the understanding of what you value most than teaching you about “who you are.” (though there is some of that too).

Do you see how this works?

when someone kindly and patiently explains it to me, yes thank you

As for your Asteroid Lilith, I have her at 2 degrees of Scorpio, in the 8nd house.

ASTEROID Lilith...there's where my confusion was...okay, next time i go to Astrodienst, i'll look her up

I tend to use the True Node yet in most cases they are within a few degrees (true and mean). Your’s is tricky because it does change signs –29 Aries and 1 Taurus. Either way, you have the same aspects, it is just more complex with the sign interpretations. Again, I would read BOTH!

so the messages of both interpretations would apply, then....it all points to me building up my self-image and self-esteem and becoming more independent, though, right?

What I said before was--None the least is your asteroid Lilith conjunct your south node (his Sun/Uranus is there) and his asteroid Lilith conjunct his Pandora on your Uranus/Mars Midpoint!

what confused me there was that i didn't think of the word "midpoint"...i was thinking of the 10th house cusp, the MC, not a midpoint between my Mars and Uranus...i think i understand now, if that is what you meant

Your friends Su/Ur, Ve/MC, Pl/No, Me/No AND his Sun and his Uranus are conjunct your South Node (true or Mean—they are only a degree apart).

.....yow...so that's a heap of karma and it has a lot to do with sex (8th house), doesn't it?[/quote]

HIS asteroid Lilith, at 20 Libra, AND his asteroid Pandora at 20 Libra are on YOUR Uranus/Mars midpoint.

i'm not familiar with what Pandora means to a relationship....i tried finding out, but didn't find much to be helpful...is it literally a "box of evils"? is it a negative connotation in this case?

YOUR Neptune is exact on his North Node at 21 Scorpio and they BOTH square your Natal Mercury in the 7th. His MERCURY is opposite your natal Saturn.

that Neptune/NN contact - does that mean HE's got a spiritual message for me, or that i have one for HIM? ...i have not been able to find a single thing online that would explain this conjunction, but it's got me convinced that this relationship is not "new", if you know what i mean....or, maybe it means i'm deceiving myself into thinking it's "meant to be" in this lifetime? .....meh....*LOL*

You both have Mutual Eros/Juno contacts by synastry.

and this means....."sex", "marriage".....?.....does it mean it's likely to happen, or just the desire, alone? or that we were once married, as the psychics claimed?

i'm sorry....my knowledge is so very limited....please let me know if i'm asking for too much free instruction, i would definitely understand!

His Back Moon Lilith is conjunct your Chiron and his Chiron is conjunct YOUR Black Moon Lilith, though I have them within 5 degrees, not spot on exact. Either way, we have a theme.

What you have is sizzling attraction (for many reasons—the mutual Venus is big as is the Eros/Juno connections. Anything that touches Saturn makes us pay attention…and it can feel like quite a pull (or an undertow). Your Mercury contacts, because of the medium through which you met and underwent much of the relationship, as well as Uranus, comes to the foreground.

it's so ironic that we can talk and talk for hours (we once spent a total of 18 hours, talking and loving each other's company one Sunday - 9 on the phone, then another 9 chatting online and only stopped cuz we were both exhausted!!!), but he chooses to cut off all communication as soon as the going gets rough, or if i "misbehave"....granted, i've made some really dumb mistakes and invoked his anger, but so many other people would've been much more tolerant, first of all, and he knows d**n well that with proper communication, we can work anything out, but he chooses to be stubborn and indignant....it really aggravates me, and i keep maintaining that if this relationship began OFFLINE, with us on at least the same continent, you know, the NORMAL WAY?? that we'd have a much easier time and our relationship would've been above average...

but i think its as you say, "power and control", and unfortunately, i can't convince him he's been doing it to me, too...

[wetlioness]

Yet there are some very intense and challenging contacts, including the Chiron/Lilith connection you mention.

What touches Chiron in the chart awakens a very duel nature. It is the part of us that wants to be heroic, yet needs training, needs coaching. It is the part of us that has returned, often exhausted, from a journey and needs to be healed, to recuperate. Contacts there can remind us that we are “super heroes” ready to do the impossible AND they can also remind us of failures and past hurts, past wounds.

the fact that we have ours in the same houses in our charts, does that mean we understand each other's wounds, and have similar ones? .....2nd house is about body image, isn't it (or is that only the 1st?) ....he and i have had conversations where we both admit to being surprised anyone could find our bodies attractive, yet we're both very attracted to each other physically...i wonder if that's why, our Chirons

Lilith is often ANGRY though she can represent the resolution of conflicts. She is an entity known by the Babylonians, Sumerians, Hebrews, and early Christians as a daemon of raw, instinctual wisdom, power and sexual autonomy. Her stories are diverse and sometimes terrifying. In all cases, she is unique in her refusal to relinquish her power. As the first wife of Adam, she left the garden and was outcast as a demoness when she wanted to switch positions or make love side by side. Adam had to be on top.

i always thought Eve was first, since she was taken from Adam's rib and created.....so if Lilith was first, what was she created from? the Earth, as Adam was? that i don't get at all *LOL*

Lilith bows down to no man yet is willing to share her tantric arts with him. In many cases, man violently rejects her, projecting onto her his repressed and demonic fears of dark feminine power. This turns her into an outcast, explosive with rage and bent on retaliation.

THIS totally makes perfect sense in context of this relationship....it seems he likes "tough girls", but simultaneously fears them....it's confusing, to say the least.....i think he wants to admire a woman who can be strong and take care of herself, but be soft as silk with him, only, at all times...

Lilith's symbol is like a hand and can be considered a beckon, a salutation, or perhaps a dire warning, depending on how she is approached. What intention do we have in mind when we meet with this dark goddess?

We all have her plutonic quality in us, the unconscious energy that brings up harsh boundaries between life and death, ecstasy and suffering, passion and revulsion, enslavement and freedom. How do we honor Lilith in our lives? Do we exile her from consciousness or build her a sanctuary for potent, creative expression? When she contacts Chiron (and the Nodes) you have are really interesting combination.

The conflicts between who you are and who you are to become are exacerbated by Lilith. There are EXTREME issues of POWER here…power and control. Have you felt that in this relationship?

BIG time....it wasn't so evident when i was there visiting, though... in fact, it seemed we were very easy with each other and accomodating to one another's needs....we seemed to work together very well, but i still wondered what would've happened had we hit a serious snag at a major difference, how it would've been handled.....with my huge stellium in the 7th acting sort of Libra-like (and i believe my Progressed Sun is in that sign now, too) and his Sun and Mercury being in Libra, i would've thought we would excel at fairness and tactful negotiation...

also, i think a lot of our control issues exist because we don't have a sexual outlet, but we've got PLENTY of passion!!!!!

would you agree?

There can be resolution though I suspect this contact brings out the most vehement in both of you. Regardless of the love and attraction, there is much to resolve that FEELS like past patterns and who know, maybe they are!

i really wish there was a definitive way of finding out.....my brother knows a past-life hypnotist and i'm tempted to go to her for assistance, regardless of the ridiculous expense...this man is THAT important to me

I think your relationship leaves you both feeling very raw and vulnerable and wanting to “protect” from such “invasion”. It would take tremendous compassion and emotional maturity to work through this material…and I suspect that Chiron, both your Chiron’s, have what it takes.

i'm so glad you have confidence.....really, that's encouraging.....except, i don't know how to bring him to understand that, too.....he barely tolerated my love of astrology, and right now, he wants nothing to do with me, and rightly so.....we left off with some very angry words a few months ago and being back at that board already feels like a pressure cooker....my gut flips every time i go there and it's only been a couple of days so far.....i have no clue how to handle this, which is why i asked that that PM get deleted and i'm just posting to my old friends who seem to be very glad to see my presence again, after a good 5 month absence....

it truly does feel like a "soul cluster", and it feels like JD and i are going to be tied together for eternity....i think it's his "Sun in 8th house" interpretation that i read that said something about any woman he doesn't have sexually will haunt him for the rest of his life....hehehe, good...*evil chuckle*

It’s a matter of “Are you both willing to do the work?”

*I* am!!!!! ....i don't know if HE'll ever be.....that's been the problem....

I hope this sheds some light.
Warmly,
Kim

yes, it did, very much.....in fact, when i first read it, i had to go have a good cry cuz it resonated perfectly....just the thought of this man makes me mist up....there's a lot more to the picture than what i've described, but i won't complicate it by going into it....by biggest questions are about the asteroids and that Chiron/Lilith thing.....so you say it's really all about the ASTEROID Lilith, and not really the Dark Moon? (forgive me, i'm a bit dense with concepts, thanks to Neptune/Merc Squared)

thank you so much, Kim....you've certainly given me a lot to think about and digest...