asteroid 4450 Pan; a few questions.

[svenskasfinx]

I have a few questions concerning details of the asteriod number 4450, known as Pan.

I understand some of the mythology going along with Pan as being a spirit of nature and a natural kind of creature.

I have taken also your short definitions into account, but I need more information.

I would like to know for example, as with other objects, and planets, how does Pan affect the bodily form?

I have my speculations about Chiron, and Sphinx due to their dual natures, and Pan seems to be something like this... a human upper torso and the lower body of an "animal".

I understand this kind of symbology, just like with the centaur, capricorn creature and the mermaid... there are a number of mythical creatures symbolic of human traits having dominance over the "animalistic side" of the creature, or the reverse with a Minotaur, the "simple goals of the animal" dominating the "human side"..

But because there are not many symbols for this type of creature in astrology, what kind of form does it take?

Does it influence, if in the first house or conjunct the ascendant, the form of the body? If so, how? Many other asteriods are easier for me to place, but Pan feels a bit difficult, and yet my recent discovery was that Pan was at the midpoint between my venus/aphrodite and sun..and thus conjunct these planets.

I liked your explanation of Aphrodite. So I would like to try to understand Pan in this kind of way.

BTW my husband has 4450 Pan on the ascendant! That was unexpected; and my chart seems to reflect that whatever qualities that this really represents, that it is these qualities I obviously seek out in a male, or possibly reflect as a female.

(in myth, the female version of the fauns were dryads, tree dwelling versions of nymphs, and that they and the fauns seduced humans to produce off-spring-)

[Kim Falconer]

I think Pan brings something very earthy, very natural to the body. You might say, “how can the body be un-natural?” Yes, well, there are plenty of people squeamish about bodily functions, “tight” when it comes to physical pleasure and “Victorian” in their approach to sensations.

Pan is not one of them.

Pan brings a link with the instinctual nature and couples it with a kind of wily pleasure. He’s cheeky, audacious and not opposed to startling others with his ‘natural approach’. The body is strong, the sense activated, the capacity for sensual experience extraordinary. A prominent Pan offers these gift in exchange for honouring the realm of the senses.

This may or may not fit with the rest of the chart. If one has a great deal of Air, particularly Libra, then the blood and bone and function of the body, the hair and smell and sweat of it is a little (or lot) gross. It’s too much. It’s uncivilized and Pan is definitely about an aspect of the psyche that is uncivilized, untamed. Not everyone is comfortable with the Wild God.

Pan gives the body robust strength, added libido and sharp instinct. He is raw and vital and knows natures ways. He is a seducer of the innocent, and the knowledgeable as well. He is one hell of a romp, metaphorical or otherwise.

Does that give you a bigger picture?
(My natal Pan is exactly conjunct my Mars at 8 Capricorn.)

Can anyone with Pan conjunct an angel or personal planet comment here? How do you feel this asteroid expresses?

Thanks for thinking of Pan.

Warmly,
Kim

[svenskasfinx]

Dear Kim,

Thank you for the quick reply to my question concerning Pan--

Could Pan just be an innocent, yet playful spirit of nature, rather childlike in his ways and only just shy until he sees what he wants?

Perhaps I am reading too much of a star sign influence to my view of Pan.

I would have to think he is also possibly musical, and loves to dance, if my mythology is correct. Aside from that, wasn't he also a worshiped male fertility God at one time?

I could see that Pan in Capricorn, (another dual nature creature) could possibly mean a sort of double dose of that earthy feeling, and that all too real version of reality..but I am only speculating.

As for Mars, it is exalted in Capricorn, if I'm not mistaken, and thus means it is a self-confident Mars..and because Pan seems to have such earthy ways, I would have to say that the two together seem to on "good terms" astrologically speaking. It sounds like you know a bit of Pan from personal experience...

Maybe Pan in Cancer, isn't at its best placement, due to its shy nature, only making Pan more elusive and harder to catch.. and I suspect Pan in Gemini is a very tricky Pan indeed!

I will have to research this a bit more, but my son has Pan conjunct Eros and Cupido... in Taurus. I am getting the double picture that he may be one who uses his charisma to get what he wants...


Another thought, because of the term "animal magnatisim" and the fact that animals of all types have been very friendly with me, even in my dreams, could Pan symbolicly represent such persons who attract animals, or those they follow home, or is that strictly a neptunian trait?

Thanks for satisfying my curiousity,

sfinxen

P.S. Still continuing my speculations...

[Kim Falconer]

Hi Svenskasfinx,

Pan is no innocent. He is natural—a nature spirit, instinctual, rustic, sexual, potent. He is not shy. He is not a child.

Pan in Cancer may not move on a desire until he feels it is “safe” and he may go about getting what he wants in a circular fashion, but he is not an aspect of the psyche that is shy. Nature is not shy.

Where is natal Saturn in respect to Pan? Are they square, or is Pan with your Sun/Ma/Ve stellium? That would shed some light.

You're right. Pan is musical and loves to dance! He celebrates life and the glorious sensations of the body.

Fertility? Yes. Pan is quite fertile!

Yes, I feel Pan is comfortable with Mars in Capricorn (Mars is exalted in that sign) though as the Capricorn “caution” effects Mars, making it less reckless and perhaps less spontaneous, so it influences Pan.

Pan in Cancer initiates through emotional assertion and a kind of psychic allure. Cancer is very tuned to nature and the cycles of life. Pan would like that. Because Cancer is concerned with safety and protection, there is a reticent aspect, though I don’t see Pan as being shy, in any sign. (think of Jupiter exalted in Cancer—the king of the gods is never shy!)

Pan in Gemini would be verbally seductive, very playful, very light.

Pan in Taurus with Cupido has an even stronger sensual side—charming, sweet, seductive.


Your comments on animal magnetism are wonderful. Those Pan Pipes could call creatures to them-they would follow anywhere!

Anyone else have thoughts of Pan?

Warmly.
Kim

[svenskasfinx]

Kim said:

.."Where is natal Saturn in respect to Pan? Are they square, or is Pan with your Sun/Ma/Ve stellium? That would shed some light."..

Sorry I'm so slow Kim,

(been kind of away from the computer with NO TIME TO THINK ack!!!

Pan is located 10.51 degrees Cancer right in between my Sun at 9.33 degrees and Venus 12.34 (and Aprodite at 12.47) So it IS in fact in the stellium. It doesn't seem to have any real Saturn influence. But sometimes a Sun quintile Saturn is counted sometimes.. but I assume it is too wide still to even touch Pan.

I just had a bit of a closer look at the aspects to find Pan one of the few RETROGRADE objects in my chart aside from Neptune..this could explain something..

(I do have a quintile from Saturn to Mars... and from Pluto to Mars, making a biquintile... between Sat to Plu which makes an interesting midpoint to my Mars)

My husband is the one with the Pan squared from his ascendant Pan in Gemini at 29°59’12" from his Saturn in Pisces Saturn at 27°43’39"; as I said, this was quite unexpected considering his reputation. I guess he never used this side of himself so easily before.

Looking at some of my charts, I found (although I still need a birth time, I see someone (Howard Devoto) with a close conjunction of Pan/Aphrodite aprox 24 degrees in Taraus (musical I think) sextile Sun in Pisces 24°51’ 9"
(1943 Anteros in Taurus too 22°20’50" in conjunction there also) (I know I had to bring him up as always :

My son though I find it odd, he also has Pan in Taurus 23°40’29" conjunct Eros in Taurus 22°39’42" and Cupido in Taurus 19°53’42" in the tenth house.. (I thought I had only the amounts of planets in his 5th house to blame to call him Super energy boy... this seems to mean he is publicly "untamed" and natural..)


A few more ideas, when one thinks of the Victorians compared to people today, I find the Victorians of England definately more "natural" than the modern human of the North American variety (consider the idea of what kind of reaction one gets from natural things like body hair on a woman or breast feeding or the human body in any other condition other than in a sexual nature.. one has to say in many ways the Victorans were less perverse than the majority of humans in the westernized coutries trying to supress things to the point they become warped to an extreme.)

In this day and age where the natural body as is, is or could be considered more "innocent" than those who go around decieving themselves that the natural is even as far as ugly or dangerous... but it has kept us as a species alive long before our strange quarks concening beauty and esthics ever came to light. (thinking about the most recent developments, models, cosmetic sugeries, and the popularity of make over programes on the television)..

Just thinking and thinking...
thanks for once again feeding my curiousity (I need sleep now, its really late here!)

sfinxen

[Kim Falconer]

Thank you for your continued thoughts and insights into Pan. Her is another to throw into the soup.

Pan, being natural, wild and linked to a very ancient part of the brain, has much to do with the sense of smell. Pan certainly rules the olfactory functions of the brain. I had forgotten to mention this earlier. He is there when we smell something that produces “reverie” –that return to a previous moment in time triggered by a familiar scent.

Has anyone ever read Tom Robbins “Jitterbug Perfume”? Now that man has some insights into Pan! A must read for anyone wanting to understand this archetype.

Thanks again for your input.

Warmly,
Kim

[svenskasfinx]

Dear Kim,

I love all the ideas here you have tossed around; as I haven't read much lately (but plan on ordering your book) it is an interesting sugestion.

That sense of smell thing really is very much something I understand.

Now for something completely different, and yet related, (I will also be asking a bit more about this later on a seperate thread concerning Medusa):

What of a relationship between the asteroids Pan and Medusa? She is also one of those symbolic half beastial forms, and I never thought much about some of these things until I read a bit about it because my curiosity was triggered by your articals.

My husband's chart has both Pan and Medusa on the ascendant at 29 degrees gemini, (which means they also conjunct my ascendant)--I know that Medusa's physical form was actually striking rather than "ugly" and the main features were the hair and eyes..(even if the gaze could turn one to stone)...

I should ask a more compleate question about Medusa with the number on a seperate thread.

Take care,

sfinxen

[Kim Falconer]

Hi Sfinxen,

I think the most striking difference between Pan and Medusa is that Pan is natural and comfortable with his nature—he is a potent fertility god and he awakens our instincts, sensuality and libido. On the Ascendant, these qualities color the way one sees the world—the window through which we look and are in turn seen.

Medusa is “unnatural” in that she is a mortal woman CHANGED by the gods. She represents outrage. She was raped. Her fertility only happens when her head is severed from her body. Her stare is death, her blood poison (or cure!)

She may add a kind of “plutonic” intensity to the Ascendant, the outlook on life, or, she may be projected onto others. (because she is uncomfortable to host). It would be interesting to know if your husband has encountered “medusa women” out in the world—angry, vehement, irrational, chip on shoulder.

It is a difficult merging, Pan and Medusa. He is so comfortable with who he is. She is not.

Does anyone else have this combination near an angle or personal planet? I’d like to hear more about this.

Warmly,
Kim

[chrissymgreen]

dear all,

i havent checked medusa in my chart yet, but i got excited when i saw this thread on pan.

i have pan in taurus conjunct cupid, ceres, and saturn (eek?), all in the 8th house. my pan in taurus trines my mars in capricorn by sign (it's not in orb).

i'm not sure about this exact combo, but i do know pan in my 8th house helps that taurean enjoyment of my sexuality!

maybe it's what helps soften that saturn in the 8th house of mine. that can make me a real nutso about sex issues (sometimes) - don't touch me! no, touch me! that sort of thing.


great thread!


-chrissy

[Kim Falconer]

I think Pan might be a real ally in the 8th. It is very very sexual there. Very comfortable with sex.

Where as Saturn is not always comfortable at all with the topics of his locations. In the 8th, he isn’t at ease all the time with intimacy and sex. Pan might just be able to add a feeling of “naturalness” where Saturn is full of fear and resistance.

It’s like Pan looks up at Saturn and says, “hey, come on…relax. You may be afraid of this but I know what I am doing…and it’s going to be fun!”<br>
Thanks for contributing here.

Warmly,
Kim

[Kim Falconer]

Hi Everyone,

There's a synastry question on Pan and I wanted to revive this thread for reference. Anyone interested in checking transits from Pan, here is a condensed ephemeris for the next few months.


From Swiss Ephemeris
Positions of Pan

Date Long Decl
-------------------------------------
01 Feb 2007 14 ar 36 10°17
06 Feb 2007 16 ar 44 11° 1
11 Feb 2007 18 ar 52 11°44
16 Feb 2007 21 ar 0 12°28
21 Feb 2007 23 ar 9 13°11
26 Feb 2007 25 ar 17 13°54
03 Mar 2007 27 ar 26 14°36
08 Mar 2007 29 ar 34 15°19
13 Mar 2007 1 ta 43 16° 0
18 Mar 2007 3 ta 52 16°41
23 Mar 2007 6 ta 0 17°22
28 Mar 2007 8 ta 9 18° 1
02 Apr 2007 10 ta 17 18°40
07 Apr 2007 12 ta 26 19°17
12 Apr 2007 14 ta 34 19°54
17 Apr 2007 16 ta 42 20°29
22 Apr 2007 18 ta 50 21° 3
27 Apr 2007 20 ta 58 21°36
02 May 2007 23 ta 6 22° 8
07 May 2007 25 ta 13 22°38
12 May 2007 27 ta 21 23° 7
17 May 2007 29 ta 28 23°34
22 May 2007 1 ge 35 24° 0
27 May 2007 3 ge 42 24°24
01 Jun 2007 5 ge 49 24°47
06 Jun 2007 7 ge 56 25° 7
11 Jun 2007 10 ge 2 25°27
16 Jun 2007 12 ge 8 25°44
21 Jun 2007 14 ge 14 25°59
26 Jun 2007 16 ge 20 26°13
01 Jul 2007 18 ge 26 26°25


Comments Welcome!


Kim

[ana]

I have been reading the lot of this with interest speciially the Pan in Cancer info as I have this in the 3rd conj Saturn and Toro Saturn rules my 8th and 9th houses Might explain my tendency to say the wrong thing on purpose at social occasions to defuse tensions and the way I do it by mistakes sometimes too......and for a living as a cartoonist And maybe my tendency to meet nice men on trains planes trams and buses but f all anywhere else......
My son has it conj Saturn too in Taurus in10/11 Known as a wild party animal but trying to chill at 35
Other son has Pan on his MC sq Saturn in 1st He seems very at home in his body and taking physical risks Wanted to be a stunt man but forgot about it..... He is very popular and reasonably sensible
Daughter has Pan conj Chiron cusp 5th in Gemini opp Mar/Uranus Sag Sq Sun Virgo sq Pallas in Pisces in a Grand Cross and is very hard working dynamic creative loves to dance and have a good time If she has a child might be interesting

[darkdreamer]

Hi,

there was such a lot in what you said, that was so right on spot. Amazing!

I have Pan in Cancer in the 8th house, conjunct my Eros (Orb:0°), Vertex (Orb:0°) and Saturn (Orb: 4°), opposite my Sun-Moon-midpoint (Orb:0°) and square my Sappho (Orb:1°).
That Sappho, Eros, Pan-combination should give me a healthy approach to sex, but actually I haven`t.
I`m very much living out my restrictive retograde Saturn there me`(Saturn is also the only planet in the right half of my chart, and therefore quite important, I think); I have such a fear of commitment (because I feel once i have committed to someone or something, I cannot break that comitment, ever. It`s like a contract for all eternity). I also have such a fear of physical intimacy, read: sex, that I tend to shy away from it and feel I`m simply unable to let go; that`s not just a sexual thing; I have to have the feeling of being in control, whenever it comes to emotional things.
Connected to this is a shyness, almost a repulsion, mixed with fascination and attraction, when it comes what I call "Taurus"-stuff; physical contact, skin, smell, taste, you know anything that has to do with the body.
Of course I also have a Moon in Aquarius, which isn`t so keen on physical contact at all. And all those Sagittarius-planets and unearthly Neptune-influence doesn`t help to get me grounded in the physical world.


"It’s like Pan looks up at Saturn and says, “hey, come on…relax. You may be afraid of this but I know what I am doing…and it’s going to be fun!”<br>"
This is so funny, because it sounds like some of the talks that have been going on in my mind quite some times.
Even though I must add, most of the times Saturn tends to win in the end.

Well, and now there`s a guy, who has his Pan conjunct my DC (1°), opposite my Mars (3°), opposite my Neptune (2°), conjunct my Draconic Moon (0°).
Also his Pan is conjunct my Southern Node (2°), and my Pan is conjunct his Southern Node (4°).
And I can feel such a strong earthy sensuality in him; it`s mesmerizing. He`s very attractive to me on a very physical level, which is a new and even scary feeling for me, for I am used to "feel" with my mind or a slightly detached spiritual attitude rather than with the involvement of something physical.
And I think, that might have to do with the placement of this Pan. He also has Venus and Mars in Scorpio and Moon in Aries, so it might help, too.

DD

[Kim Falconer]

Hi DD and Ana,

I agree that Pan is v. physical and v. into taking risks of a physical nature--and also he's quite capable--he can handle in the physical realm.

That Pan on Draconic Moon is interesting and seems to me a strong contributor to the sensuality you are experiencing in this synastry, DD. Also the link to the South Lunar Node. Both of these contacts have a nodal connection and I get the feeling he is there to 'remind' you that you have a body!

Thanks for the comments.

Kim

[Aphrodite]

I feel a definite mind/body connection with my Pan. I LIKE HIM!

Hang on, though... Come to think of it, my 8th house Pan in Gemini, conjunct the Sun, got me into a lot of trouble in my younger days. It would always start with an innocent conversation and wind up in the bedroom before I even knew where it was going. ("Geez, that was fun! What's your name?" ) Mars in Aries might have helped with that.

This mind/body aspect of an 8th house Gemini Pan/Sun can (and should) be expressed very effectively outside the bedroom, too. When I was 19, very poor and hungry, I contemplated whether to become a hooker or join the military. Military won. I wasn't sure if I could be a good soldier, but I wanted to try. It was a good choice. Mars in Aries might have helped with that. Ok, (sigh!) I guess Pluto and Jupiter/Chiron had something to do with it, as well.

My experience with Pan is that he is realistic, honest and unflinching. He adds a great deal of mental and physical toughness to an otherwise passive personality. Pan is definitely willing to take a risk. There is a certain instinctive cunning about him. The risks are calculated. He is a creature of nature and sees no sin in the needs of the flesh. He revels in life whenever and wherever he can. He can do what needs to be done, when he must. He survives and thrives.